Re: OT: Castro vs. Ahmadinejad

On 2010-10-14 16:30:55 -0700, Tony <tony@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> said:
On 10/14/2010 6:09 PM, Miss Elaine Eos wrote:
On 2010-10-14 05:52:42 -0700, Tony <tony@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> said:

Well first, let's assume that I believe that God commanded us these
things. Then, if I did your exercise, I'd say "they're all equally
important", which we both know is the correct answer.

They're in order for a reason.

One assumes that because carrying each separately on its own stone
tablet would have been cumbersome, and God figured he's already given
Moses enough grief scaring him half to death with the bush thing ;)

What makes you think they're in order of importance? Did God say that?

Yup.

CCC: 2055 When someone asks him, "Which commandment in the Law is the greatest?"8 Jesus replies: "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the prophets."9 The Decalogue must be interpreted in light of this twofold yet single commandment of love, the fullness of the Law:

The "love God" based commandments are greater than the others.

Ah, true -- I'd slipped-gear that. But the rest are not in order of importance, right?

(Also, CCC: isn't really "Jesus said." I mean, yes, they quite him per The Source, but the proper cite would've been the verse. However, now that you say it, I remember it, so no need. Oh, heck, I can Google... Matt 22:36-37)


Mortal sin requires three components.

1. Knowledge of the sin.
2. Free consent of the will.
3. Do it anyway.

1. I knew it was a sin not to go to mass.
2. I freely chose to subject myself to a sailboat ride that I knew would
preclude my attending mass.
3. I did it anyway.

Why is this not a mortal sin? (You told me earlier it got an "excused
absence.")

Because you added new criteria. I the case above, you die on your boat ride you get a one way ticket to hell. You are specifically saying "I'm placing a boat ride over the worship of God".

Not sure what you mean by new criteria.

Are you saying that anyone who chooses to take a world-sail and (knowing that they will) misses mass breaks the 1st commandment, a mortal sin?


Well, when St. Paul was locked in prison, he couldn't very well go to
temple, could he. It wasn't like Gitmo there where he gets what he
needs to worship properly.

1. Paul knew it was a sin not to go to temple. (Right?!)
2. Paul knew that, if he behaved a certain way, he would be thrown in
prison and not be able to go to temple.
3. He did it, anyway.

How is this not a mortal sin?

You're making an assumption with #2. I don't agree with that premise.

Seriously?! Paul was stupid *AND* unobservant of the world around him?!

I know you think i'm just picking on Catholics, but you presented the 3 criteria (above.) Do you REALLY think Paul didn't know that he'd be arrested?! They *KILLED* Jesus!


Just because there's a [rather small, if you ask me!] level of
indirection... do you Catholics give a free pass for that?

1. I know it's a sin to murder.
2. I know that, if I don't allow tony to have food or water for long
enough, he'll die.
3. I do it, anyway.

But I didn't DIRECTLY kill Tony -- he died of starvation! Is that
okey-dokey in your book?!

Don't be stupid, Ted. Of course you did. What if you call the mothership and aliens kill me on your behalf. You didn't directly kill me, right? :P

Right. It seems to ME that I committed murder. But I'm trying to offer examples of how I don't see how your 3 criteria make any sense (which leads to my why it all seems like a bunch of rules-lawyering to me.)

I don't REALLY mean it as an attaack on your faith.

Heh. I suppose it's more of an attack on your reason. <G> Sorry, not intended as an attack, but more like "how can you buy into that?! It doesn't make sense!"


Being wiped out with the flu while really wanting to go to church is
not the same as skipping it for your kids' soccer practice.

I'm not talking about the flu (and why can't one be carried to mass and
put in the quarantine room, amyway?!) I'm talking about:

Paul fully intended to behave in a way that he knew full well would get
him imprisoned and not allowed to go to temple. But he decided that was
more important than keeping the NUMBER ONE commandment!

....Yet you give him a pass. What's up with that?

See above. If I'm protesting at an abortion clinic and I get arrested and can't go to Mass, I get a free pass too.

Really? Even if you go into it knowing that you may well miss mass because of your actions?

Now, if you believe that you're well within the law and there's no valid reason that you get arrested, and THEN you get arrested, I can see how you miss the #2 criteria. I'm talking about if you make the decision to start throwing rocks (or standing too near someone who does) or something that you know full well has a decent chance of getting you into a holding sell on a Saturday evening, with no chance of being processed in time for prison-chapel.

The boat ride may be a better example.


See above. Jesus says 1,2 and 3 are more important than the rest.

Yeah, ok. Conceeded. I mistook you for "in order of importance."


You could have simply said: "You're right!" A lot less words and bandwidth.

You should know me better than to imagine *THAT'S* a concern... ;)

--
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