Re: The GIMME state

In article <RnZrl.67661$rb1.22822@xxxxxxxxxxxx>,
Tony <tony@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Miss Elaine Eos used his keyboard to write :
In article <3aHrl.21941$l71.10669@xxxxxxxxxxxx>,
Tony <tony@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Would you be comfortable with someone else determining if you have the
right to live or die?

Not after I was born.

Before then, I'd say I haven't much choice in the matter :)

I know. It sucks to be a non-person, doesn't it. It sucks worse when
"persons" are determining that you're a non-person.

Yeah. Dogs have the same problem. Actually, it's worse for them, as
they never get to "become human", and so can't ever look back and say
"man, THAT sucked!"

Let's fast forward a few years. Those kids who we are teaching that
"fetuses" who don't have "personality" are not human and don't require
human rights, will be talking a look at you in the nursing home
suffering with Altzheimer's.

Funny. Momma Misc just finished a long bout with Alzheimer's plus a few
other things which made her not just personality-less, but almost
completely non-responsive. I can't tell you the number of times in the
past several years that I wrestled with "but what if her mind is
working, and she's *in*there*, but just can't respond, because her motor
is screwed up?!"

This, of course, led to all sorts of discussions about what it means to
be human, and whether or not Momma Misc still qualified.

I'd caution you against treading in this area, it's seriously sticky
stuff. However, I've had the chance to study it -- in depth -- first
hand, multiple times now, with a great deal of 2nd-hand extracurricular
work. I'm something of an expert, here.

They may decide that you really are a non-productive drain on society's
resources and help you along into the great unknown to save money.

"When they came for the fetuses, I didn't speak up, because I wasn't a
fetus..."

Great rhetoric, but what's that got to do with the topic at hand...?

So all we have to do is simply declare you a non-person, and then we
can do what we want. Welcome to the brave, new world.

Yes, this is true. Again, fine rhetoric, but a tad pointless.

Do not confuse "cannot name the specific hour and minute of a crossover
that happens gradually" with "cannot tell if it has started, yet."

No, I'll use the "minute before" defense. IOW, if it's five months,
why not a minute before?

A minute before, it's not human, either.

Of course not. That would give it the right to life which would trump
the convenience of the adults (who vote, BTW).

While true is *ALSO* true, your implication that it is the REASON for my
saying so is insulting, in addition to being flat-out false.

No, the reason for my statement is this: In any system where a
transition commences at a certain time, and at time-X, that transition
has not-yet begun, then it is true for time "one minute before time-X"
that that transition ALSO has not yet begun.

"Convenience" has nothing to do with it.

Now, I understand that you believe in an invisible, unknowable,
all-powerful being who can do whatever he likes, including break or
change the laws of physics, as he "operates outside of normal
space-time" -- so I can understand how you might think that this being
might be able to make something true one minute, then "has never been
true" the next minute. However, I'm here to tell you right now that
this is not the case. It has never been the case. I can't say with
certainty (my powers of precognition are not infinite! ;), but I'm
pretty sure it will never be the case.

Btw, at what point, exactly, does an egg/fetus/baby gain it's immortal
soul? If your answer is "at conception", at what point, exactly, is the
child conceived?

Be specific.

When the sperm hits the egg and the first divide happens (when the DNA
combines into a unique individual).

You've named two different times, and one of them isn't at all precise.
I guess you don't know, either, eh?

Ask an embryologist. They can give you the exact second when it
becomes a he or a she (and they can tell you which).

Actually, my embryologist (an advantage of living this close to places
like Stanford & Nasa is you get to know all sorts of people :) tells me
that none in their right mind would make any such claim. They WOULD,
however, tell you whether the thing about which we're talking was
probably going to turn out to be either a he or a she, once it did so.

So, how about that "time of conception" thing, hmmm?

--
Please take off your pants or I won't read your e-mail.
I will not, no matter how "good" the deal, patronise any business which sends
unsolicited commercial e-mail or that advertises in discussion newsgroups.
.

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