Re: Charging by the Byte

Paul M. Cook wrote:
"Ray" <chigarayREMOVE@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:qfrd545vnmg3tmf9hhd23tcsa6so0vbqc7@xxxxxxxxxx
On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 22:29:34 GMT, "Paul M. Cook" <pmcook@xxxxxxx>
wrote:


"Ray" <chigarayREMOVE@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:a8od5457du1rem33bjsfqr144boaeoh2rf@xxxxxxxxxx
On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 21:43:27 GMT, "Paul M. Cook" <pmcook@xxxxxxx>
wrote:


"Ray" <chigarayREMOVE@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:t79d5452k8ctpfji6pml7jiso7fc2c2ilf@xxxxxxxxxx
On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 17:07:10 GMT, "Paul M. Cook" <pmcook@xxxxxxx>
wrote:


"Ray" <chigarayREMOVE@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:cs3d54pvbsth7moapkgjqp3vs58t31k0nc@xxxxxxxxxx
On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 07:42:28 GMT, "Paul M. Cook"
<pmcook@xxxxxxx> wrote:


"Ray" <chigarayREMOVE@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:4j2c545t190hhdea0b7v8lrgidbug2fdfe@xxxxxxxxxx
On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 20:39:47 -0700, Miss Elaine Eos
<Misc@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

In article <Uzi5k.15765$8q2.2429@trnddc02>,
"Paul M. Cook" <pmcook@xxxxxxx> wrote:

If A == B and B == C then A == C.

Works on paper but real life and language is a whole lot
more complicated
and subtle.

Depends on what your definition of language is... ;)

Or what your defintion of "is" is.

Words are what we use to think. You cannot have thought
without words.
You
can figure out where I'm going with this.

Paul



Really? I am an artist and often have thoughts and ideas that
are purely visual.

Is that thought? Can you be sentient with pictures? And lemme
tell ya,
I
have had plenty of visualizations that didn't need no words -
get my drift?
ha ha ha.

No, I don't get your drift. Please elaborate.

If you had a visualization that didn't require words, it was a
complete thought.

So a picture is a thought? So when my cat visualizes that a toy
is really
a
mouse that is a thought? OK, so let's say you visualized the
Mona Lisa. You have a 4 word vocabulary. How would you
communicate that image to somebody else? Would it be easier if
you and the other person had say a 1000 word vocabulary? How
about 10,000? One can only be so impressionistic
before the visualization becomes just a blur and the only cure for
impressionism is detail and that requires words (or in your case
more paint) - ergo the more words the better the thought.

Paul



You said "Words are what we use to think. You cannot have thought
without words."

You did not say you cannot convey thought without words.

What are you conveying? Let's say 2 non-verbal humans are standing
on train
tracks. One sees a train coming and jumps out of the weay,
arguably a fight
or flight response. The other stays on the tracks. So the other
person starts jumpoing up and down making sounds. Arguably a
thought. The dude on
the tracks has no idea what the other guy is doing. He has no way
to think
it through, he has no thought process to say "something is no right
here." Perhaps he feels something that mnay or may not elicit the
correct response,
but in no way can he know because he can't think it out.

If I imagine a picture in my mind, that is a thought. If I paint
that picture I have presented a representation of that thought
without words.

If you believe that an image in the mind is thought but I do not. All
living creatures that have visual receptors see picture in the
brain.
If I hear a melody in my head and and start playing it on the piano
that is not only non-verbal expression of thought, it is also a
minor miracle since I don't know how to play piano.

Not at all sure what that means.

In pre-verbal humans (we'll leave your cat out of it) thoughts were
conveyed using any number of methods. Most of them would have been
centered around the most rudimentary of thoughts...but thoughts
nonetheless.

What came first, the chicken opr the egg? Ancestral humans
developed the ability to generate a vast range of complex sounds.
Afterwards the evolution rate of humans exploded and in a time span
measured only in a couple 10's of thousands of years did they go
from being unrecognizable primates to very recognizable humans. The
evolutionary graph of intelligence over time was pretty flat
until about the time they think people started being able to
develop language and at that point the graph goes practically
vertical. It gets even better when they found a way to preserve
language and pass this on in the form of writing. So as to the egg and
the chicken, which came first? Was it a
developed brain that created language or language that led to a
more developed brain?

Paul



Cats, bees, chickens, eggs and all that....impressive attempt to
dodge the main issue.

Dodging the main issue or supporting it with relevant examples? If
I've done anything it is to have failed to convey my thoughts. And
that is because I lack the vocabulary of that particular branch of
science and philosophy. I know that Louis B. Leakey and Rene
Descartes could do a vastly superior job than I can. So that kind of
proves my point.

You maintain it is impossible to have thoughts without words. I say
you're wrong. Lots of people have thoughts without using words.
Albert Einstein was said to have "visualized" most of his theories.

Einstein had plenty of words, too.

Paul

My dogs name is Einstein and he can only bark.

bernie


--
"Official ASC Shaman"


.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Charging by the Byte
    ... Depends on what your definition of language is... ... If you had a visualization that didn't require words, ... You did not say you cannot convey thought without words. ... Let's say 2 non-verbal humans are standing on ...
    (alt.smokers.cigars)
  • Re: Charging by the Byte
    ... Depends on what your definition of language is... ... If you had a visualization that didn't require words, ... So a picture is a thought? ... Let's say 2 non-verbal humans are standing on ...
    (alt.smokers.cigars)
  • Re: Charging by the Byte
    ... Depends on what your definition of language is... ... If you had a visualization that didn't require words, ... So a picture is a thought? ... Let's say 2 non-verbal humans are standing on train ...
    (alt.smokers.cigars)
  • Re: Yet Another Roswell Thread
    ... Language where memes fit very well and where memetic markers (such as ... some kind of a transformation occured among modern ... But modern humans appear to have ... I have a particular country in mind here. ...
    (sci.space.policy)
  • Re: Singing as prerequisite (or aid) to language.
    ... > nightingales have language. ... Modern singing humans are engaging ... > definition of verbal behavior would be something like "verbal behavior ... > is it a reinforcer because the "singing" controls the behavior of the ...
    (sci.bio.evolution)