Re: Charging by the Byte


"Ray" <chigarayREMOVE@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:qfrd545vnmg3tmf9hhd23tcsa6so0vbqc7@xxxxxxxxxx
On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 22:29:34 GMT, "Paul M. Cook" <pmcook@xxxxxxx>
wrote:


"Ray" <chigarayREMOVE@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:a8od5457du1rem33bjsfqr144boaeoh2rf@xxxxxxxxxx
On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 21:43:27 GMT, "Paul M. Cook" <pmcook@xxxxxxx>
wrote:


"Ray" <chigarayREMOVE@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:t79d5452k8ctpfji6pml7jiso7fc2c2ilf@xxxxxxxxxx
On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 17:07:10 GMT, "Paul M. Cook" <pmcook@xxxxxxx>
wrote:


"Ray" <chigarayREMOVE@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:cs3d54pvbsth7moapkgjqp3vs58t31k0nc@xxxxxxxxxx
On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 07:42:28 GMT, "Paul M. Cook" <pmcook@xxxxxxx>
wrote:


"Ray" <chigarayREMOVE@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:4j2c545t190hhdea0b7v8lrgidbug2fdfe@xxxxxxxxxx
On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 20:39:47 -0700, Miss Elaine Eos
<Misc@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

In article <Uzi5k.15765$8q2.2429@trnddc02>,
"Paul M. Cook" <pmcook@xxxxxxx> wrote:

If A == B and B == C then A == C.

Works on paper but real life and language is a whole lot more
complicated
and subtle.

Depends on what your definition of language is... ;)

Or what your defintion of "is" is.

Words are what we use to think. You cannot have thought without
words.
You
can figure out where I'm going with this.

Paul



Really? I am an artist and often have thoughts and ideas that are
purely visual.

Is that thought? Can you be sentient with pictures? And lemme tell
ya,
I
have had plenty of visualizations that didn't need no words - get my
drift?
ha ha ha.

No, I don't get your drift. Please elaborate.

If you had a visualization that didn't require words, it was a
complete thought.

So a picture is a thought? So when my cat visualizes that a toy is
really
a
mouse that is a thought? OK, so let's say you visualized the Mona Lisa.
You have a 4 word vocabulary. How would you communicate that image to
somebody else? Would it be easier if you and the other person had say a
1000 word vocabulary? How about 10,000? One can only be so
impressionistic
before the visualization becomes just a blur and the only cure for
impressionism is detail and that requires words (or in your case more
paint) - ergo the more words the better the thought.

Paul



You said "Words are what we use to think. You cannot have thought
without words."

You did not say you cannot convey thought without words.

What are you conveying? Let's say 2 non-verbal humans are standing on
train
tracks. One sees a train coming and jumps out of the weay, arguably a
fight
or flight response. The other stays on the tracks. So the other person
starts jumpoing up and down making sounds. Arguably a thought. The dude
on
the tracks has no idea what the other guy is doing. He has no way to
think
it through, he has no thought process to say "something is no right here."
Perhaps he feels something that mnay or may not elicit the correct
response,
but in no way can he know because he can't think it out.

If I imagine a picture in my mind, that is a thought. If I paint that
picture I have presented a representation of that thought without
words.

If you believe that an image in the mind is thought but I do not. All
living creatures that have visual receptors see picture in the brain.

If I hear a melody in my head and and start playing it on the piano
that is not only non-verbal expression of thought, it is also a minor
miracle since I don't know how to play piano.

Not at all sure what that means.

In pre-verbal humans (we'll leave your cat out of it) thoughts were
conveyed using any number of methods. Most of them would have been
centered around the most rudimentary of thoughts...but thoughts
nonetheless.

What came first, the chicken opr the egg? Ancestral humans developed the
ability to generate a vast range of complex sounds. Afterwards the
evolution rate of humans exploded and in a time span measured only in a
couple 10's of thousands of years did they go from being unrecognizable
primates to very recognizable humans. The evolutionary graph of
intelligence over time was pretty flat until about the time they think
people started being able to develop language and at that point the graph
goes practically vertical. It gets even better when they found a way to
preserve language and pass this on in the form of writing.

So as to the egg and the chicken, which came first? Was it a developed
brain that created language or language that led to a more developed
brain?

Paul



Cats, bees, chickens, eggs and all that....impressive attempt to dodge
the main issue.

Dodging the main issue or supporting it with relevant examples? If I've
done anything it is to have failed to convey my thoughts. And that is
because I lack the vocabulary of that particular branch of science and
philosophy. I know that Louis B. Leakey and Rene Descartes could do a
vastly superior job than I can. So that kind of proves my point.


You maintain it is impossible to have thoughts without words. I say
you're wrong. Lots of people have thoughts without using words. Albert
Einstein was said to have "visualized" most of his theories.

Einstein had plenty of words, too.

Paul


.

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