Re: The miracles of the qur'an (REPOST)

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On Apr 17, 8:40 pm, le physicien nocturne <nos...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
1man4all wrote:
On Apr 15, 1:11 am, le physicien nocturne <nos...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Who he is and his intellectual abilities is irrelevant. The point is: the
qur'an proposes a challenge which can be met with all the knowledge,
computers and technology that we have today. Fermat's last theorem was
solved recently, and an army of people tackling the qur'an "problem" can
certainly find a solution. There is no reason that the qur'an's challenge
can't be met.

Then go ahead and meet that challenge. Write a book in rhyme that is
totally consistent, makes laws, discusses social issues, correctly
describes natural phenomena 1400 years before their discovery, has no
grammatical error, is so easy to remember that millions of people who
don't even know the language have been able to memorize it, and which
can gain millions of adherents, and you would have met that challenge.
Try also this link:

http://www.quran.org/code/allmmlh.htm

If I remember correctly, the challenge is addressed to all men and djinns.
I suppose this may include women, children, and obviously, muslims can
participate.

By the way, the criterion that you mentioned may not be the same as mine.
That's why I said that the challenge must be stated in unambiguous way.

Me alone, it may take my whole life to do it. But people working together is
acceptable, according to the terms of the challenge.

As I stated earlier, there is nobody stopping you from taking up that
challenge.

Here is a link that you may want to see, which answers your comments:

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Miracle/ijaz.html

If you combine that with other things that I had mentioned earlier,
Quran is certainly a very unique book.

As soon as the qur'an's challenge is stated with enough data to prevent
misjudgment, the challenge could be solved maybe within 10 years.

Then try it.

The questions you should be asking yourself are the following: Mirza
just took one verse from Deedat's article, but mentions nothing about
what Deedat had to say. If he was just going to quote the verse, why
mention Deedat? It does not make any sense.

Mirza goes on to make ridiculous comments. If the Holy Quran has
numerous sub-chapters within each Surah, linked together in rhythm,
why is it bad? Doesn't that allow the Author to write about hundreds
of subjects in one small book? Don't we find such a thing in music?
Keep in mind that Quran means "recitation,"not a book.

There's nothing bad in rhythm, recitation, music or anything else.
The problem is with the claim of divine inspiration of the qur'an.

Why is it a problem? Quran is the only book in which the Author boldly
speaks like God, not appealing but rhetorically asking questions and
telling people what is right and wrong. It's bit abrasive, but that's
what you would expect from God Almighty. All other religious books are
mere stories.

Mohammed claimed divine inspiration from angels, just as many other
religions.

Prophet Muhammad did not claim to be "inspired" by angels; Quran was
revealed to him as the Word of God. Does the Bible claim that it's the
direct word of God? Jews/Christians make that assumption but the Bible
does not claim that for itself.

Compare with Joseph Smith (Mormon), Rael (the French cult leader), and
many other cults. Most often, they claim divine (or innerrant)
inspiration just because they want to establish some sort of moral
absolute. The divine origin is their justification of the absoluteness of
their moral standard. In our days, we still see many kooks claiming to be
God, Jesus or inspired by angels. Now, they're competing with science,
and they're no match against science. It was not so in the times of the
bible and the qur'an.

Well I have read the Book of the Mormon, and I would say that it's an
interesting story, but where does it tell me how I should li
ve my
life. I also find the book bit racist.

I didn't talked about the book of Mormon as a guide for living, I mentioned
it as a claim of divine inspiration. Besides, the book of Mormon also has a
challenge of it's own.

Does it claim to be the direct word of God?

What's the evidence for Point #5? Where does it say that each and
every book must have a chronology?

They may or may not, but having a chronology helps for making the message
better understood.

I don't think so. Most books do not have a chronology.

Which contradictions is Mirza
referring to? I haven't seen any.
Where is the evidence that Muslims were killed upon finding out
"contradictions" in the Quran?

Didn't some hadith mention that those who apostasied in Mohammed's time?

You didn't answer my question. But where is the evidence that people
were killed for finding contradictions in the Quran? By the way,
Prophet Muhammad didn't have anybody killed simply for apostasy.

Those who know the hadiths may reply better than me, but I saw some posts
about this.

They can't. They haven't. Why are you going by what other people say.
Why don't you do your own study?

It's a fact that there are difficult points in the qur'an. Explanable or
not, this shows that the qur'an is similar to other religious books.

Difficult points like what?

Those inhttp://www.answeringislam.orgfor example. I wasn't mentioning it
for debating everyone of them. Just mentioning that some see problems in
the qur'an, regardless if they're real or not.

That's just a Christian web site with a lot of disinformation. If you
don't have time to read books, these two web sites have rebutted just
about everything on answering.islam web site.

http://www.islamic-awareness.org

http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac.htm

It depends on how much big explanation one can swallow until it no longer
passes.

It depends on your resistance too :-)

The problem with religious books is that they claim to be the perfect /
final / errorless version inspired by God. If these books accept
revisions to correct errors, this would show that these books aren't
inspired by God.

Quran has never been revised.

So you say, but that may explain these traces of old superstitions: shooting
stars used as missiles against djinns, donkeys braying because they see
Satan... etc.

What the Quran leads us to believe is that we human beings are unique
in the universe; however, earlier, God did create other types of
intelligent beings, called Jinn, who not only inhabit parts of this
universe but can also travel through space and have
visited Earth. Whereas human beings are created from earth (matter?),
the Jinn were created from fire (energy?) The 72nd Chapter of the
Quran, Surah Jinn, reveals that at one time the Jinn were permitted to
travel anywhere in space, even come close to 'Heavenly Sanctum' (my
own description) but are now restricted, and if they persist, they can
be fired upon.

Verse [67.5] says: "And certainly We have adorned this lower heaven
with lamps and We have made these missiles for the Shaitans, and We
have prepared for them the chastisement of burning."

Compare this verse with:

[15.16] And certainly We have made strongholds in the heaven and We
have made it fair seeming to the beholders.
[15.17] And We guard it against every accursed Shaitan,
[15.18] But he who steals a hearing, so there follows him a visible
flame [or a clear flaming fire]. .

Which is, essentially, referring to the same thing. So what is being
implied is certainly not "stars" but some kind of a missile or laser
being fired upon oncoming intruders. You may call it "science
fiction," if you like, but it's not crazy.


Regarding donkeys, that is not mentioned in Quran at all. What you may
be referring to is the following hadith:

Sahih Bukhari
Volume 1, Book 9, Number 490:
Narrated 'Aisha:
The things which annul the prayers were mentioned before me. They
said, "Prayer is annulled by a dog, a donkey and a woman (if they pass
in front of the praying people)." I said, "You have made us (i.e.
women) dogs. I saw the Prophet praying while I used to lie in my bed
between him and the Qibla. Whenever I was in need of something, I
would slip away. for I disliked to face him."

So as the Hadith suggests, the Prophet's wife Aisha disproved the
foolish assertion that was being made.


Besides, books written without any claims of divine inspiration can be
made much less prone to errors, depending on how much it gets revised,
checked and corrected. Just think of an operating system, either Linux or
Windows. Windows was so well known to suffer from many bugs, but now it's
pretty much stable.

Then why do we get a new version of Windows every few years?

Bugs, marketing, competition, etc. I didn't say Windows is now Perfect,
Linux neither, because that was the point of my argument. Both are man
made, subject to errors, criticism and improvement.

Things made by man don't pretend to be perfect. Books supposedly coming from
divine inspiration ought to be inerrant, beyond criticism and final. What
we see with many sacred books is that they try to explain difficulties with
a set of explanation more or less easy to swallow. One day, the chunk is
just too big, and one can consider them as just being man made, ridden with
imperfections, because they weren't revised.

I think you can reject ANY sacred book on some silly excuse. A lot
depends on your ability to have an open mind and to look for answers
rather than with the desire to undermine it.

Why is it a bad thing that millions of people who do not even know
Arabic are able to memorize the Quran? That ought to be considered
miraculous!

It's nothing miraculous, I think it's easier to memorize songs than
remembering by heart a plain text. Besides, one can learn a song in a
foreign language without necessarily understanding it. What is different
with the qur'an is that book is supposed to be used as guidance.
Memorizing it in arabic is pointless if it's not understood.

Easier said than done. Try memorizing 114 songs of any language that
you don't know.

It takes time, just as for anybody learning the qur'an, but it's not
impossible nor a miracle.

Why don't you give it a try and then have an opinion:-)

My point still remain: memorizing the qur'an in arabic is pointless if it's
not understood.

No, people do understand it, but in their own language.



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