Re: The Concept of Eternal Damnation in Islam

On 22 May 2006 19:29:09 -0700, "1MAN4ALL" <forahmad@xxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:


MYSELF wrote:

I quoted two sources that suggest that in that conference it was
generally agreed that only 26,000 people were killed and the all sides
were guilty of atrocities. Normally, references are provided and it is
up to other people to verify them. I cannot grab you by the ear and
force you to acknowledge something that you don't want to.

1BOY is a childish liar. His 1 reference is to
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/46059.htm which lists the conference
program and provides NO details of the papers which were presented.

But I presented two other references which do describe what was
discussed.

1BOY is getting childish. His other 2 references were:
http://www.dawn.com/2005/07/11/letted.htm#6
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_30-6-2005_pg1_2
These mention the Rehman and Bose reports. So why discuss them 2nd
hand when they can be examined in the original. Besides these are from
Paki newspapers, and as such they have no validity at all.

I had given other references as well, but I guess you don't want to be
intellectually honest.

1BOY shows that he is not only dishonest but stupid as well.

For the upteenth time, 1BOY has given references to the Bose and
Rehman reports, 1 reference to State Dept Conference, one to Wiki
article, and to Paki newspapers, which also refer to the said Reports.
What I have stated is that since State Dept reference contains no
details of papers, only the original Bose and Rehman Reports are worth
discussing.

The Hammodur Rehman Report, Sarmila Bose's research on this subject,
and references to the State Department meeting are available on other
web sites as well.

It suffices to get the Rehnman and Bose Reports from whatever site.
But the site refered to for the State Dept Conference presents NO
PAPERS which were presented at the conference.

Let me ask you the question that I asked earlier:
Are all Pakistani liars,

Not necessarily.

even three judges from Pakistan's highest
courts, including a Chief Justice of the Supreme Court who was a
Bengali himself and would naturally have sympathy for his fellow
Bengalis?

It is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT who these individuals are. We are talking
about the Report they have produced. And there is no reason why it
would not be INADEQUATE irrespective of their background.

Perhaps 1BOY is TOO STUPID to see that.



You don't believe those references because they don't agree
with what you have been asserting. If I get a confirmation from the
State Department that this is what was discussed, would you then
believe me?

Not necessarily. Because it depends on what was presented and the
quality of what was presented. Though it is most likely that any of
the presenters would have done any research themselves.

First you kept arguing that my references don't prove what was
discussed at that meeting, and now that I am offering to get the hard
evidence for you, you are claiming that you are not going to believe it
anyway! That shows that you have totally lost this debate and are in
denial.

1BOY shows his dishonesty and stupidity again.

Hey 1BOY just read what I have stated. If you have difficulty
understanding simple language please dont waste my time.


The meeting was attended by several historians, and any one
of them could have contradicted these published reports as to what was
the outcome of the conference.

SEE ABOVE.


1BOU's other reference: http://www.pppusa.org/humudurrehman.htm
is the reference to the Rehman Report itself. In this Report the
Allegations are noted in Chapter 2 §8. and in §32 the Report just
dismisses the allegations without even showing attempt to determine
how many were MURDERED by the Pakis.

It dismisses them because those Indian allegations were without any
substantiation whatsoever. Where is the evidence from the Indian side
that 3 million were killed? What is this allegation based on?

Evidence is demographic. According to population statistics, before
and after the Paki murders, about 3 million Hindus were missing from
Bangladesh. And the only events that could account for this is the
mass murder by Pakis which countless witness accounts attest to.

LOL. Can you provide a reference to these statistics? Actually what you
are suggesting is something that NOBODY but you has alleged.

1BOY shows his dishonesty again. The following was presented in the
beginning of the thread:

Nandan Vyas ("Hindu Genocide in East Pakistan", Young India, January
1995) has argued convincingly that the number of Hindu victims in the
1971 genocide was approximately 2.4 million, or about 80%. In
comparing the population figures for 1961 and 1971, and taking the
observed natural growth rhythm into account, Vyas finds that the Hindu
population has remained stable at 9.5 million when it should have
increased to nearly 13 million (13.23 million if the same growth
rhythm were assumed for Hindus as for Muslims). Of the missing 3.5
million people (if not more), 1.1 million can be explained: it is the
number of Hindu refugees settled in India prior to the genocide


Sheikh
Mujeebur Rehman, the first Prime Minister of Bangladesh, who came to
power as a result of Indian invasion, alleged that 3 million people had
been killed. That number included everybody, not just Hindus. If three
million Hindus were killed, how many more were Muslims? 80 million? The
origin of 3 million figure is that the ex-President of Pakistan Yahya
Khan had allegedly made a statement during the civil war that 3 million
would have to be killed. He was probably referring to the diehard
supporters of Sheik Mujeebur Rehman. So, after the war, Rehman made a
blank statement that 3 million had been killed and that 200,000 women
had been raped without doing any investigation whatsoever. Unable to
justify this figure, Bangladeshis then started claiming that the number
was 300,000 but they cannot correct the figure without getting
permission from Indians, which is ridiculous. But the 300,000 figure
was not based on any serious study either. The only reliable estimate
is the one mentioned in Hamoodur Rehman's report which is based on army
reports, and that number includes people killed by Mujeebur Rehman's
supporters, the Mukti Bahini, as was pointed out in Ms. Bose's report.

And it has been pointed out to the dishonest and stupid 1BOY again and
again that Rehman Report presents NO RESEARCH OF ITS OWN. It only
gives the figures given by the Paki army. And Paki army figures are to
be REJECTED as one would reject NAZI figures of the number of Jews
they killed.



You have no idea what you are discussing and have lost this debate!

1BOY obvioulsy takes pleasure in his stupidity and dishonesty.

What 1BOY cites as 26000 is in §33 which referes to just the figures
which were officially sent by GHQ.

What the report says is this:

32. According to the Bangladesh authorities, the Pakistan Army was
responsible for killing three million Bengalis and raping 200,000 East
Pakistani women. It does not need any elaborate argument to see that
these figures are obviously highly exaggerated. So much damage could
not have been caused by the entire strength of the Pakistan Army then
stationed in East Pakistan even if it had nothing else to do. In fact,
however, the army was constantly engaged in fighting the Mukti Bahini,
the Indian infiltrators, and later the Indian army. It has also the
task of running the civil administration, maintaining communications
and feeding 70 million people of East Pakistan. It is, therefore,
clear that the figures mentioned by the Dacca authorities are
altogether fantastic and fanciful.

33. Different figures were mentioned by different persons in authority
but the latest statement supplied to us by the GHQ shows approximately
26,000 persons killed during the action by the Pakistan Army. This
figure is based on situation reports submitted from time to time by the
Eastern Command to the General Headquarters. It is possible that even
these figures may contain an element of exaggeration as the lower
formations may have magnified their own achievements in quelling the
rebellion. However, in the absence of any other reliable date, the
Commission is of the view that the latest figure supplied by the GHQ
should be accepted. An important consideration which has influenced us
in accepting this figure as reasonably correct is the fact that the
reports were sent from East Pakistan to GHQ at a time when the Army
Officers in East Pakistan could have had no notion whatsoever of any
accountability in this behalf.

AS said before already. Rehman has NOT done his OWN research to
ascertain how many were murdered by the Pakis. Rehman is just TOO
STUPID AND CARELESS, he just takes the GHQ figures. It is like taking
Nazi figures on the Jews they murdered. So the Rehman report goes
PLONK !! PLONK!!

As the Hamoodur Rehman Commission pointed out, "This figure is based on
situation reports submitted from time to time by the Eastern Command to
the General Headquarters. It is possible that even these figures may
contain an element of exaggeration as the lower formations may have
magnified their own achievements in quelling the rebellion." That is a
very strong argument because unlike Nazi Germany, none of the Bengalis
were kept at concentration camps. Pakistani army was simply trying to
quell the rebellion and was cognizant of the fact that many Bengalis
wanted to stay with Pakistan. According to some web sites, the
operation against the insurgency went on for 9 months. That is hardly
enough time to tell friend from foe to get that kind of casualty
figures. There is hardly any evidence of entire villages being wiped
out or hundreds of thousands put in the gas chamber.

1BOY only shows his stupidity. Pakis did not need any gas chambers. It
is estimated that the Paki army could easily have carried out this
genocide if each soldier killed 1 person every 10 days.
(http://www.mukto-mona.com/new_site/mukto-mona/Articles/kasem/mathematics_genocide.htm)



34. The falsity of Sheikh Mujibur Rahman's repeated allegation that
Pakistani troops had raped 200,000 Bengali girls in 1971 was borne out
when the abortion team he had commissioned from Britain in early 1972
found that its workload involved the termination of only a hundred or
more pregnancies.

That came TOO LATE.

Bangladesh became independent December 1971, and in early 1972 Mujeebur
Rehman had this commission up and running. So if you are claiming that
these pregnancies were terminated several years later, I don't have a
response :-)

1BOY shows his stupidity once again. Firstly most women DO NOT get
pregnant by rape, secondly rapes took place in 1971 and earlier, and
Rehman came to power in 1972, so for many pregnancies it was too late.
Can you understand that 1BOY ?? Or are you still confused ??




You have utterly lost this debate, and I am thinking about moving on to
some other subject. I am not interested in India, Pakistan, and
Bagladesh anyway.

1BOY talks like a stupid primary school kid.


I think the report, if you read it in its entirety, is very credible.
My question to you is, once again, what are the Indian reports based
on? Did Indians conduct a survey as to how many were killed or how many
women were raped? How come there was only hundred or so termination of
pregnancies?

SEE ABOVE.

Keep in mind that marauding Bengalis were also going
around and killing/raping people who wanted to stay loyal to Pakistan.

These is a separate issue.

Why is that a separate issue? You have to determine how many were
killed by whom if you are going to blame any one side.

And when this bogus army failed on
so many counts why would anyone imagine that they would have any
interest in telling the truth. Would this BOGUS army, like NAZIS,
openly boast of killing millions of Hindus ????

Internal army reports sent by field commanders are usually very
accurate. It is possible that few Pakistani army officers lied but in
the overall scheme of things, the numbers won't change much. I think
you are totally sold on Indian propaganda reports.

CRAP. NAZI army figures in such cases would not have any reliability
at all.

What Nazi (military) figures are you referring to? Most of the German
military records from WWII are still under seal. (There was an article
on that in the Washington Post couple of weeks ago). The German
government has neither supported nor denied Jewish allegations, so
there is no discrepancy.

I am not referring to any NAZI figures. Because NAZI operation of
killing Jews was mostly "covert". The 6 million jews killed come from
external sources. In the same way Paki army would not have any
reliable figures about how many they killed.



And it is not only this report but the research work done by a
respected Hindu, Bengali profesor (who I am sure has no sympathy for
Pakistan), which is in conformity and agreement with the report's
findings.

Bose's background has no meaning in this context at all. The point was
that her research was TOTALLY FLAWED. She did not understand anything
about "sampling" in Social Science Research, not did she do any
cross-checking, nor did she cover her field of study adequately. She
just relied on few "incidental" interviews. Moreover she has not made
any claim that her research answers as to how many were murdered by
the Pakis. So her Report is irrelevant and goes PLONK!! PLONK!!

What kind of "sampling" do you think she should or shouldn't have done,
realistically speaking?

1BOY has no clue. So to say that Bose's samples should cover her Data
in terms of "validity" and "reliability" would also have no meaning
for 1BOY. (All these terms have precise meanings in the Methodology of
Social Science Research) Besides it was pointed out that Bose DID NOT
do any cross-checking, nor did she cover her field of study
adequately. She just relied on few "incidental" interviews." That why
Bose's Report is GROSSLY FLAWED.

Can you understand that 1BOY ????



BOSE's report is available from the Internet. It is VERY CLEAR from
her report that her research methods WERE VERY SHODDY. And it is VERY
CLEAR from her report that she makes NO EFFORT TO ESTABLISH how many
people were killed by Pakis. That is why Bose's Report goes PLONK!
PLONK!

Shoddy in what way? What is it that she didn't do that is normally done
in these types of studies?

1BOY obviously does not have much education, much less that he would
know anything about Social Science Research. This is no place to
educate him. NOR is this any place to tell him about "sampling" which
would have been crucial in such research. Suffice it to say that
Bose's Report was rejected by people who know better. AND IN ANY CASE
Bose has only studied isolated incidents AND has not made any attempt
to estimate how many were MURDERED by the Pakis.

LOL. She spent three years on this research and you would think that
being a Harvard graduate she would know a thing or two about how to
conduct research. My question to you is, as a Hindu and a Bengali, why
would she suggest that most of these allegations against Pakistani
soldiers, committing atrocities, were either not true or highly
exaggerated?

Bose's background has no meaning in this context. Her Report is
rejected, see above.

It's obvious that you are rejecting is because it disagrees with you.
That is no reason to reject it.

SEE ABOVE for Reasons, (if you have any brains to understand it at
all).


1BOY talks like an uneducated mental retard.

LOL. Your childish insults are evidence enough that you've lost this
debate and don't have facts on your side.

Hey 1BOY I am not trying to insult you at all. But like most Muslims
you just are just too stupidly.


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