Re: The Concept of Eternal Damnation in Islam

On 19 May 2006 16:20:16 -0700, "1MAN4ALL" <forahmad@xxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:


MYSELF wrote:
On 18 May 2006 19:32:14 -0700, "1MAN4ALL" <forahmad@xxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:


MYSELF wrote:

You and Drahcir just proved that you two are not capable of having an
intellectual discussion:-)

1BOY cites bogus references to support his arguments, that
obviously is a sign of lack of intelligence on his part.

I gave you two references and you rejected them both. You are not going
to concede no matter what I evidence I put forward; that's very
obvious. As I stated earlier, you can also write to the State
Department and get records/minutes of that meeting, if you like, if you
don't trust those sources that I had provided.

1BOY assumes that the some kind of evidence was presented at the
conference, and that is his argument. Well it is up to 1BOY to show
that evidence. Most likely NO eveidence could have been presented at
such a conference.

I quoted two sources that suggest that in that conference it was
generally agreed that only 26,000 people were killed and the all sides
were guilty of atrocities. Normally, references are provided and it is
up to other people to verify them. I cannot grab you by the ear and
force you to acknowledge something that you don't want to.

1BOY is a childish liar. His 1 reference is to
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/46059.htm which lists the conference
program and provides NO details of the papers which were presented.
1BOU's other reference: http://www.pppusa.org/humudurrehman.htm
is the reference to the Rehman Report itself. In this Report the
Allegations are noted in Chapter 2 §8. and in §32 the Report just
dismisses the allegations without even showing attempt to determine
how many were MURDERED by the Pakis.

What 1BOY cites as 26000 is in §33 which referes to just the figures
which were officially sent by GHQ. And when this bogus army failed on
so many counts why would anyone imagine that they would have any
interest in telling the truth. Would this BOGUS army, like NAZIS,
openly boast of killing millions of Hindus ????

So 1BOY is not only DISHONEST but UTTERLY STUPID AS WELL.

That is why the Report goes PLONK!! PLONK!!


http://www.pppusa.org/humudurrehman.htm

All you have to do is to write to the State Department and find out if
such a conference took place and the attending historians reached the

1BOY refers to H Rehman report. Firstly, this commission was setup by
the Paki government, that makes the Report suspect. SECONDLY: the
report DOES NOT AT ALL show why the figure of 3 million is inaccurate.
SO his reference goes: PLONK !! PLONK !!

Why reject that report just because it was written by a Pakistani
judge? Are all Pakistanis liars? What evidence do you have that
Hamoodur Rehman was a dishonest judge? Why would the Pakistani
government keep that report classified for decades if it was favorable
and declassified only AFTER portions of it were leaked to an INDIAN
magazine.

1BOY was clearly told that the Paki Report is REJECTED because it
makes ABSOLUTELY NO EFFORT to establish how many were killed by the
Pakis. That is why the Paki Report goes PLONK! PLONK!

It does! You didn't read the report, did you?

YES. SEE ABOVE. That is why the Report goes PLONK!! PLONK!!


This is what one India magazine has to say:

"Public demand for an inquiry led to the instituting of the judicial
Commission under Hamoodur Rehman to investigate the political and
military causes of the defeat. Hamoodur Rehman, who hailed from East
Pakistan was the then chief justice of the Supreme Court. The other
members of the Commission were Justice Shaikh Anwar-ul-Haq of the
Punjab High Court and Justice Tufail Ali Abdul Rehman of the Sindh High
Court. The Commission took just over two years to prepare its report,
but successive civilian and military authorities in Pakistan suppressed
its publication because of the sensitivity of the subject.

"The report has now been declassified, after portions were leaked to an
Indian magazine last year. It is not difficult to understand why the
authorities were opposed to its publication for it spares no one,
including the man who ordered the inquiry-the charismatic prime
minister Zulfikar Ali Bhutto."
http://www.himalmag.com/apr2001/report.html

Thus, there is simply no reason for your rejection of your report other
than extreme bigotry.

SEE ABOVE

Here are some additional references:
The meeting did take place:
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/46059.htm

SO WHAT ???? If a conference took place, it DOES NOT SHOW
what was discussed, and on what grounds.
so 1BOY's argument goes PLONK!! PLONK!!

You are assuming that people who attended this conference and reported
its findings are all lying. If you don't believe them you can write to
the State Department and confirm. You can also write to Samila Bose who
attended the conference and is a Bengali herself!

BOSE's report is available from the Internet. It is VERY CLEAR from
her report that her research methods WERE VERY SHODDY. And it is VERY
CLEAR from her report that she makes NO EFFORT TO ESTABLISH how many
people were killed by Pakis. That is why Bose's Report goes PLONK!
PLONK!

Shoddy in what way? What is it that she didn't do that is normally done
in these types of studies?

1BOY obviously does not have much education, much less that he would
know anything about Social Science Research. This is no place to
educate him. NOR is this any place to tell him about "sampling" which
would have been crucial in such research. Suffice it to say that
Bose's Report was rejected by people who know better. AND IN ANY CASE
Bose has only studied isolated incidents AND has not made any attempt
to estimate how many were MURDERED by the Pakis.

That is why the Bose's Report goes PLONK!! PLONK!!

Bye 1BOY.
As I said you need to start all over again from Primary School.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmila_Bose

1BOY conveniently or rather VERY DISHONESTLY left out
of his citation that the wikipedia article also says:

"her work unleashed a barrage of criticism in Bangladesh and her
research methods have been attacked as shoddy and biased"

It's understandable that Bangladeshis would be upset. They have been
led to believe by India, arch-enemy of Pakistan, and their own leaders
that 3 million were killed, even though no evidence was ever presented
and no serious study was ever conducted by India or the Bangladeshi
government. The onus is on those who are claiming that 3 million died
to prove it; other people are under no obligation to disprove untenable
assertions.

A Harvard educated Indian (Hindu) professor at George Washington
University, who spent three years in Bangladesh researching this
subject, had this to say:

"Washington: An academic's investigation of conflict sites in the East
Pakistan in 1971 did not come across any cases of rape of women by the
Pakistan Army.

"According to Professor Sarmila Bose of the George Washington
University, "In all of the incidents involving the Pakistan Army in the
case-studies, the armed forces were found not to have raped women.
While this cannot be extrapolated beyond the specific incidents in this
study, it is significant, as in many cases the allegation of rape was
made along with allegations of killing in prior verbal discussions or
in some cases even in written form in Bengali literature. However, when
Bengali eye-witnesses, participants and survivors of the incidents were
interviewed they testified to the violence and killings, but also
testified that no rape had taken place." Prof Bose was addressing a
conference on the 1971 conflict arranged by the State Department to
mark the release of declassified documents from that period.

"Prof Bose said there has been no systematic study of the 1971 conflict
which, in turn, hinders "a true understanding of a cataclysmic
restructuring in modern South Asian history."

"Bengalis appear to be determined more by fewer opportunities rather
than a principled stand, both sides are equal in terms of the nature of
the crime. Equally, acts of humanity in the midst of a bitter conflict
are found on all sides."

"She said, "The civil war of 1971 was fought between those who believed
they were fighting for a united Pakistan and those who believed their
chance for justice and progress lay in an independent
Bangladesh. Both were legitimate political positions. All parties in
this conflict embraced violence as a means to the end, all committed
acts of brutality outside accepted norms of warfare, and all had their
share of humanity. These attributes make the 1971 conflict particularly
suitable for efforts towards reconciliation, rather than
recrimination."

"She said the civil war was not merely between the two wings of
Pakistan, but also within the territory of East Pakistan, between
Bengalis and non-Bengalis, and among Bengalis themselves, who were
bitterly divided between those who favoured independence for Bangladesh
and those who supported the unity and integrity of Pakistan. She
collected her data over the last three years through visits to Pakistan
and Bangladesh. She visited sites of violence in the latter and
interview witnesses and participants in those events."
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_30-6-2005_pg1_2

That is a Paki refering to Bose's so-called research. As cited above:

"her work unleashed a barrage of criticism in Bangladesh and her
research methods have been attacked as shoddy and biased"

Of course they are going to attack it because they would rather pity
themselves and hope to receive compensation for alleged atrocities.

this Paki article goes: PLONK!! PLONK!!

You can PLONK as much as you want but you don't have facts on your
side.

See also:
http://www.epw.org.in/showArticles.php?root=2005&leaf=10&filename=9223&filetype=html

1BOY refers to a Report set up by the Paki government.
And the report doest NO AT ALL try to show why the
figure of 3 million murdered is not justified.
SO the Report goes PLONK!! PLONK!!

http://www.maxpages.com/umarkhan/islam_is_great_part_3

But the report was done by a Supreme Court judge, whose credibility
nobody has even questioned, and who was a Bengali himself and must have
had sympathy for Bengalis.

1BOY is clueless. He has apparently not read the Report. ONCE AGAIN:
The Report gives ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE why a figure of 3 million
murdered is inaccurate.

The report didn't have to because the 3 million figure was not based on
anything. It was simply an after-war propaganda statement issued by
India, accepted by newly independent Bangladesh wanting to justify its
independence. Other than Hamoodur Rehman's report and Ms. Bose paper no
serious study has been conducted, both of which (written by Bengalis)
prove that that allegation of 3 million killed and millions of
Bangladeshi women raped is just absurd.

1BOY repeats his crap. BOTH the Rehman Report and Bose's Report DO NOT
EVEN MAKE an effort as to ESTABLISH how many were killed by PAKI's.
1BOY has to go back to my original post to see how the figure of 3
million was derived.

But the Hamoodur Rehman report does establish about how many people
were killed and explains in great detail how that figure was arrived
at. Obviously, you haven't read the report and all you have are
insults.

You are not presenting facts but relying on insults [calling me "1BOY"]
and Plonking every reference I put forward. You don't have much of an
argument, and I guess I need to move on. Bye.

1BOY repeats his crap. His references have been PLONKED because they
make ABSOLUTELY NO EFFORT to establish how many were killed by the
Pakis.

See my comments above.

Bye 1BOY.
Perhaps you need to start all over again from Primary School.

Once again you are using insults as a substitute for a rational
argument.

.

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