Re: GWB's Spin Doctor

Bubba wrote:
"You can think whatever you want, but the word "reactionary" usually
has
radical connotations."

Yes, that's right, and I see about half of Americans have that meathead
attitude for me to call it mainstream.

I am trying to explain to you that if a viewpoint is shared by half of
americans, by definition it is not extreme.

"It needs absolutely no enhancement -- islam looks malevolent to any
reasonable, objective person. For some reason, you at some point lost
either your reason or your objectivity or both."

That's because the public is exposed to only one side, a side that is
unfortunately drowning out the protests of the regular Muslims who
condemn them and is also being amplified by the media.

That is not correct. I vividly remember the day in 2001 when I was
driving a friend home and we were discussing islam. This was before I
had read anything about islam or any of the source material. He said
that 9-11 is perfectly consistent with the koran because on numerous
occasions it instructs the reader to kill the infidel. I told him that
that was impossible -- there were so many muslims in the world and they
would never follow a book with such instructions. Then I started to
read it for myself and, as we all know, he was correct. In typical
muslim manner, you will disagree, saying "kill them wherever you find
them" does not mean one should kill them wherever one finds them. You
will try to persuade with some gibberish that neither you nor I has any
hope of comprehending. But never mind -- there will always be plenty of
muslims ready and willing to do muhammad's bidding, who understand
"kill them wherever you find them" to mean just that.

All they see
when they receive their news is a bloodthirsty killer, emphasised by
those cartoons drawn by your friends in ideology. (awaiting predictable
response, and it's the last I plan to read from you, so you better make
it convincing)

Ask yourself a question. Why is Islam the only major religion for which
you see people killing? Why don't you see crazy-eyed jews running
around blowing themselves up for yahweh? If anyone ever had a reason to
kill indiscriminately, it's jews, with all the *** they take from
arabs. (And don't start with the occupation crap -- they wouldn't be
occupied if they didn't ineptly try to wipe israel off the map 5
times.) But they don't. Why don't you see Christians running around
blowing themselves up for Christ? The reason is that nowehere in the
old or new testament is the reader instructed to kill, kill, kill.
Nowhere is he told that if he is brave and murders for God, he will be
rewarded. Nowhere is the reader instructed that practitioners of other
religions are evil and will suffer comdemnation by god. Now please
understand, I am no great fan of any religion, since all are nothing
but lies the purpose of which is to get a group of people to do the
bidding of the few, but certainly one must acknowledge the relative
preniciousness of the three monotheistic religions. If you disagree,
start by finding equivalents in the old or new testaments of 2.191,
4.89, 4.91, and 9.5,

Again, assuming that I jumped into the religion blind is laughably
ignorant and insulting at the same time, but then again, you can only
get your point across through bullying and the like, so I'm not
surprised.

I have no interest in bullying, I have interest only in transmitting my
astonishment that anyone can walk into islam with open eyes. There are
a number of reasons people convert to islam. One is that they had a
terrible experience with their previous religion -- perhaps they were
molested as children or something of the sort. Another is social --
they don't like the people who were members of their old faith and get
all warm and fuzzy with members of their new one. But these reasons are
nothing more than excuses to overlook the monstrosity which is islam.
Hey, if you're not going to blow yourself up or shoot as many infidels
as you can, I don't care if you're a muslim. I just don't understand
how one can interpret something so pernicious (let alone disorganized,
contradictory, unclear, misogynistic, xenophobic, meandering, etc.) as
the koran as anything godly, that's all. God, if he existed, would
certainly do better for his final message to all men for all time.
Quite frankly, just the thought of it makes me smile. It's ridiculous.

"You above statement, which is no longer above due to snips, said that
right wingers believe all muslims want to kill the unbelievers, meaning

all unbelievers. The two are not the same."

What two are not the same?

Forget it. I am not repairing your snips. If you want to know, go back
and piece it together.

"I have had enough of your nonsense.Do you even realize how deceitful
you are? (What is it with muslims, are they deceitful by nature or does

islam make them that way?) Let me illustrate. I said islam was
xenophobic. You counter that the koran welcomes others with open arms.
Implicit in your statement is "into the faith", but then, of course, we

are no longer talking about xenophobia. Provide me some koran quotes
that speak of welcoming unbelievers who remain unbelievers. If you do,
I will counter with koran quotes which make its attitude towards
unbelievers abundantly clear. The ball is in your court."

Gosh, your definition of deceitful is just as distorted as your
perception of Islam. I know you don't want to believe me, but
gee-wizz.

However, I must concede my error; I meant to say the Prophet of Islam,
but put the Qur'an there mechanically. But here are your quotes from
the man who represents Islam: "These genealogies of yours are not a
reason to revile anyone. You are all children of Adam. No one has
superiority over another except in religion and taqwa (the fear of
God)". (Reported by al-Bazzar)

In future discussions, I would appreciate cites, please, so that I can
verify and review context.

Now, as to your pull, of course it is not from the Koran. Don't open
the door to hadith, because you will be very sorry. The stuff in there
is horrid and shows muhammad not only to instruct the killing of every
jew, but also a sadist. (E.g. "The Prophet sent (some people) in their
pursuit and so they were caught and brought, and the Prophet ordered
that their hands and legs should be cut off and that their eyes should
be branded
with heated pieces of iron , and that their cut hands and legs should
not be cauterised, till they die.") Believe me, you don't want to go
there. Your pull says that muslims are "superior" and that is the best
you can do to show that islam is "welcoming". That speaks for itself,
bub. And the fact that you could not pull from the koran also speaks
for itself.

"O people, your Lord is One. Know that there is no superiority of an
Arab over a non-Arab or of non-Arab over an Arab, nor of a white over a
black or of a black over a white, except through consciousness of Allah
(taqwa). Verily, the most honorable among you in the sight of Allah is
the one who has most taqwa."

Same thing. Muslims are superior. Again not from koran.

Consciousness of Allah is consciousness of God, so that means
Christians, Jews, even agnostics (as there was even a measure of
tolerance for them back in the day when they paid taxes under Islamic
law).

You are wrong. Jews and Christians are not conscious of Allah. Just ask
them. The whole allah = yahweh crap was a pure invention of muhammad to
gain respectability. And what about hindus, buddhists, taoists, etc.
etc. etc. I guess they are not "welcome".

The Prophet also said: "He who hurts a dhimmi hurts me, and he who
hurts me annoys Allah." (reported by al-Tabarani)

DHIMMIS ARE NOT "WELCOME". THEY ARE OPPRESSED AND WITHOUT RIGHTS AND
MUST PAY A SPECIAL TAX. Yet again, not from the koran. Looks like you
are simply UNABLE to pull a quote from the koran to support your
contention that non-muslims are "welcome". DOESN'T THAT TELL YOU
SOMETHING?

And where, implicit in my statement did I say "into the faith?"

Please get a dictionary and look up "implicit". If it's implicit, by
definition you didn't say it.

"Of course I cannot speak for every one. However, I am sure that if the

shoe were on the other foot, if it were the arabs who were strong and
the jews weak, the chechens strong and russians weak, there would
simply be no more jews or russians. Anyone who doubts that is either
naive or a liar."

Perhaps, but again that would mean that all Arabs, Pakistanis and
Chechens shared the same mindset, and unfortunately, you don't know
what they think.

The facts are the facts. It doesn't matter whether they would be borne
out by every single member of the society.

"Yes, it will. Each of us gets to ride it only so many turns. Think
well
how you spend yours."

Well, I'm a religious pacifist, whereas you're a chickenhawk with an
all-encompassing hatred for another religion (and people). I think I'm
pretty satisfied with my lifestyle.

I honestly don't know what you mean by "chickenhawk". Must be a
southern thing. Regarding your satisfaction, I am honestly sorry to
hear that.


"Please, at least have the honesty to admit a good repartee when you
hear one."

Okay, will do.

Thank you.

"There is no such thing as their "view of faith". Faith is on or off --

either you have it or you don't. My point was most people will not
commit suicide for a cause without faith that a) they are doing god's
work, and b) something else awaits. There is nothing self-righteous
about that simple point. You just don't want to hear it, that's all."

Okay, now that we're nitpicking, let me add the missing word and repost
it.

"Again, I could explain of the terrorists' misguided view of their
faith, but
it'll be countered by the all-knowledgable and self-righteous."

Now redo your argument.

Isn't it fascinating how god's final message to all men for all time
has been "misinterpreted" by so many? Couldn't omnipotent god have sent
a message which was not so unclear as to be "misinterpreted" so often
throughout history? A message from an all-good god, especially a
message that would never be repeated or superceded, would not lay
itself open to misinterpretation unless he were not omnipotent, which
he is by definition. It would be crystal clear to all men of all
languages for all time. To any reasonable person, the fact that it is
"misinterpreted" so often is one proof amongst many that the koran
could not possibly have been written by a good and omnipotent god.


"It is not only acceptable, it is imperative upon all good people to
hate evil."

Ah yes, you've got it all down, nothing more for you to learn, I know.

I am always open to learning more. That's part of the reason I am here
at ARI. But the evidence against the validity of the koran is so
overwhelming that whatever else I learn about it, that cannot possibly
change. Similarly, learning more about cosmology will not change my
belief that the earth revolves around the sun.

Please make your next retort a good one and get off your high horse; I
can only take you seriously halfway thanks to your open hatred of
another people.

Again, it is the faith I hate, not its practitioners. The proof is, you
are a muslim, and I don't hate you.

.