Yet another Jefferson quote

The Chozen Few wrote:

Whether all-able or all-powerful or both, God (*if* He exists) *could*
prevent all evil. In fact, how could evil even come into existence unless
God (ditto) wanted it to happen? And *why* did He want that?

Those were both rhetorical questions, btw.

You once again ignored my point that "all-powerful" or "all-able" does
not mean that God also exercises that power. I think you now agree but
don't want to acknowledge it, so let's move on. Your two question are
1). If God can prevent evil, why doesn't He do so? And 2). Why does God
want evil to exist? Let me ignore the part about "rhetorical" and treat
these as actual questions.

The answer is very simple: God does not prevent evil because life is a
test of one's character and actions.

[22.53] So that He may make what Satan casts a trial for those in whose
hearts is disease and those whose hearts are hard; and most surely the
unjust are in a great opposition,
[22.54] And that those who have been given the knowledge may know that
it is the truth from your Lord, so they may believe in it and their
hearts may be lowly before it; and most surely Allah is the Guide of
those who believe into a right path.

God would assist you in whatever you want. If 'you' choose good, you
would be guided; if you choose evil, even in that endeavor you would be
helped, until it would be clear to you that evil leads to death and
destruction. As Quran says, "[43.36] And whoever turns himself away
from the remembrance of the Beneficent God, We appoint for him a Satan,
so he becomes his associate.

Now the question is, why would God want that? The answer is the same:
Life is a test.

Okay, but putting people through challenges in life is not unkind.

Here's a "challenge" for you:

http://www.easypersian.com/Iran_earthquake_pictures/earthquake_photos.htm


I'll grant that the young lady in the bottom photo doesn't seem to be
suffering much, though.

As I stated in one of my recent posts, God has created death, which is
passage to another existence, and He has created numerous ways which
bring about death. Death, by itself, is not a "punishment" or God being
"unkind". In some cases, it's a blessing. You must have watched the
comedy movie, "Death Becomes Her," starring Meryl Streep and Goldie
Hawn, in which two women find immortality treatment and no matter what
injuries they suffer, they don't die. That was hilarious.

For the survivors, however, natural calamities are challenges,
opportunities to learn, a time to rebuild, and a natural outcome of
unpreparedness.

In
case you are confused, kindness does not necessarily mean moral
guidance or being unjust to favor somebody.

In case *you* are confused, a major earthquake in a city is evidence that
God is certainly *not* kind to all people.

See my comments above.

If you see a homeless
person on a road and give him some money, you 'are' being kind, even
though you could try to persuade him to change his lifestyle.
Similarly, as a judge, you can be kind and sympathetic towards a
convicted criminal and still sentence him to death, hoping that by
paying for his crime he would another chance in the next life.

Which leaves wide open the question of how eternal torment can possibly be a
justly deserved fate for any human being, no matter how criminal and/or
depraved.

As I promised, I would address it in another thread.

Both your and my argument is based on the premise that God exists.

No, mine in this context has been based (*very* hypothetically) on the
premise that the God of *some* parts of the Quran exists.

If He exists for some parts then He exists for all parts!


You can't even prove that He exists for *any* part, much less that He
exists for *all* parts.

As I have stated many times, that kind of "proof" has to do with
trust, consistency and personal experience. The things that are truly
provable are a priori, which are all abstract and based on reason
alone, such as 2+2=4. Everything else is dependent on a posteriori
knowledge and therefore, ultimately, unreliable. What's achievable in
this world, with our limited perspective, is not "proof" but
'sufficient' evidence, which is highly subjective, For example, if
am broke but still thanking God for His blessings and then suddenly
find a $10 bill right on my prayer mat, which is enough to get me
through one more day before the next paycheck, that is sufficient proof
that God exists. For you it wouldn't be; it would simply be a
coincidence. The universe that I see through my pinhole you cannot see
unless you stand where I stand.


Okay by me, but that would take the discussion well outside the context
of
the Quran, or any parts thereof.

Into what context would you put it in?

Epistemology.

But that by itself would not satisfy you as you would once again be
faced with the choice of accepting a posteriori knowledge as sufficient
or insufficient in proving the existence of God.

Let me ask you: If I propose to you that all criminals in your
correctional facility be turned over to people like Gandhi and Mother
Teresa, what would your answer be?

My answer would be that they'd both probably be incompetent to run a
prison,
or would soon be fired even if they were competent. Though I've never
known
any prison staff as evil as some I've seen in movies, I've also never known
any worthy of mentioning along with Gandhi and Mother Teresa.

Then I guess you are conceding that Gandhi and Mother Teresa were fit
to help only certain kind of people. I have done some work for prisons,
including one juvenile facility, and I know that granting or denial of
privileges, and in some cases, fear, are powerful and necessary tools
in corrections. That is why almost all religions have a doctrine of
rewards and punishments to keep their adherents on a straight path. The
point that I am making is that although one can appreciate the great
humanitarian work of Gandhi or Mother Teresa, the contributions of
teachers, policemen, judges, and prison guards are just as important.

Regarding your question, I am sure every Muslim country has
philanthropists and aid workers who have done much for suffering
humanity. They are not well known in the West but it doesn't mean
that they don't exist.

They're also not well known to you, evidently.

I live in the US, so my knowledge of great humanitarians,
philanthropists or aid-works in Muslim countries is very limited. But I
was able to find one on the Internet who I think would meet your
expectations:

Abdul Sattar Edhi of Pakistan
http://www.telmedpak.com/ngos.asp?a=Edhi_Foundation
http://pakistan.wikia.com/wiki/Edhi_Foundation

He probably has done 100 times as much as Mother Teresa but because he
is a Muslim, I don't think you will ever hear about him in the
mainstream American press.


But it's an interesting topic and perhaps I
or somebody else should do some research and highlight contributions of
these people.


I'll take that to mean you also can't think of any Muslim worthy of
mentioning along with Gandhi and Mother Teresa.


See above.

In what way is your "mad scientist" same as what is depicted in
Quran? Compare your description with the 99 attributes of God given in
Quran.

My description may be found earlier in this thread, and I won't bother
repeating it. Below are the attributes which I think are most obviously
applicable (from the list at http://www.jannah.org/articles/names.html):

**************************

Al-Jabbaar (The Compeller, The One that nothing happens in His Dominion
except that which He willed).

Al-Bari' (The Evolver, The Maker, The Creator who has the Power to turn the
entities).

Al-Musawwir (The Fashioner, The One who forms His creatures in different
pictures).

Al-Khaafid (The Abaser, The One who lowers whoever He willed by His
Destruction and raises whoever He willed by His Endowment).

Ar-Raafi^ (The Exalter, The Elevator, The One who lowers whoever He willed
by His Destruction and raises whoever He willed by His Endowment).

Al-Mu^iz (The Honorer, He gives esteem to whoever He willed, hence there is
no one to degrade Him; And He degrades whoever He willed, hence there is no
one to give Him esteem).

Al-Muthil (The Dishonorer, The Humiliator, He gives esteem to whoever He
willed, hence there is no one to degrade Him; And He degrades whoever He
willed, hence there is no one to give Him esteem).

Al-Mughni (The Enricher, The One who satisfies the necessities of the
creatures).

Al-Maani^ (The Preventer, The Withholder).

Ad-Daarr (The Distresser, The One who makes harm reach to whoever He willed
and benefit to whoever He willed).

An-Nafi^ (The Propitious, The One who makes harm reach to whoever He willed
and benefit to whoever He willed).

**************************

You can do the comparisons yourself, or not.

I tried but frankly I don't see the relevance, especially if you
include other attributes that you have omitted.

If you really can't see the contradiction between passages like 2:256
("...And Allah guideth not those who reject faith") and 81:29 ("But ye
shall
not will except as Allah wills..."), I don't know anything I could
possibly
say to improve your vision.

2:264 says:

[2.264] O you who believe! do not make your charity worthless by
reproach and injury, like him who spends his property to be seen of men
and does not believe in Allah and the last day; so his parable is as
the parable of a smooth rock with earth upon it, then a heavy rain
falls upon it, so it leaves it bare; they shall not be able to gain
anything of what they have earned; and Allah does not guide the
unbelieving people.

And 81:29 says

[81.29] And you do not please except that Allah please, the Lord of the
worlds.

I don't know how many times I have to explain to you that God's
refusal to guide or to 'seal' somebody's heart comes AFTER that
person's refusal to listen to reason. Quran describes very clearly
WHEN God places a "seal" on somebody' heart:

You can "explain" it as many times as you like, but that still won't change
the plain meaning of other passages in which human will is portrayed as
being utterly dependent (either for good or bad) on God's will.

And you can refuse to acknowledge as many times as you want but the
fact remains that God is alluding to the 'system' that He has
created not to specific acts for which you keep finding Him
responsible. As I keep stating, the Holy Quran has to be viewed
holistically, not sum of individual verses which one can interpret
independently. Otherwise, you would be led astray.

[63.2] They make their oaths a shelter, and thus turn away from Allah's
way; surely evil is that which they do.
[63.3] That is because they believe, then disbelieve, so a seal is set
upon their hearts so that they do not understand.

So first you need to understand that God seals a person's heart ONLY
after that person has turned away from the truth. The "seal" is NOT
set upon their hearts PRIOR to their wrongdoing or turning away.

Verse 81:29, I already explained, has many interpretations but if you
read it with couple of lines before it, it would be obvious that Quran
is a "reminder" for those choose to be guided and once they have
made that decision----they believe---God allows that to happen.


Okay, here's 81:27-29:

"Verily this is no less than a Message to (all) the Worlds:
(With profit) to whoever among you wills to go straight:
But ye shall not will except as Allah wills,- the Cherisher of the Worlds."

Again, "explain" all you like, but the meaning is plain.

The question you need to ask is, What does Allah will? As I stated
earlier, God's guidance is a form of 'subscription,' which can be
cancelled for non payment of proper attention. Let's say that you
want Hotmail. By just wanting it---willing it---you you are not going
to get it! Microsoft has to agree to give it to you, and if you don't
it use for some time, your account would be cancelled, even though you
had willed that it remain open. Similarly, when you will to "go
straight" (to find proper guidance), God has to agree, or be willing
(depending on your sincerity), to give it to you, and if you are not
making use of that guidance, it would be withheld from you--your
heart/mind would be 'sealed'. That's all it means. You are deriving
meaning which doesn't fit the context.

.

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