Yet another Jefferson quote


The Chozen Few wrote:

No, you were trying to prove that al-Qadir means "all-powerful" by
referencing some web sites. And my "quibble" was that "all-powerful" is
an interpretation, not an accurate translation, because there is no
equivalent word in the English language. That can hardly be described
as a "trick." All you have to do is find some (Christian) Arabic
speakers and ask them if I am right or wrong.

It's a distinction without a difference in this context. An all-able deity
with complete foreknowledge is also an all-powerful deity.

Okay but as I keep explaining, All-Able or All-Powerful does NOT mean
EXERCISING that ability or power! For example, I am sure you are able
and have the power to hit me over the head with a 2x4, but you may not
want to do that :-)

The reason that God declines to use that power---to stop someone from
committing evil---is to test human beings as to what they would choose,
and what they choose in this life would determine their status in the
next world. People have different challenges in this world, but there
is equal opportunity. If they are helpful to their fellow human beings,
obey divine and prudential man-made laws, work hard, choose good and
shun evil, there is no reason why they cannot succeed in this life and
the hereafter. For somebody to complain that God should have stopped
him or her from committing evil is a silly excuse and contrary to the
very basis of human existence.

But if God is all-powerful (or even if only "all-able"), then God *could*
have stopped him or her from committing evil. And why *shouldn't* God do
that, if God is also purely good? Or will you now claim that pure
goodness
is also not among the 99 Quranic attributes of God?

No, Because I keep explaining that the very purpose of life is to put
each and every adult human being through a series of challenges, to
test their judgment. The world was never meant to be perfect.


Sure, and as you've also explained, "God is certainly kind to all people,
whether they believe in Him or not."

http://tinyurl.com/z85ot

Okay, but putting people through challenges in life is not unkind. In
case you are confused, kindness does not necessarily mean moral
guidance or being unjust to favor somebody. If you see a homeless
person on a road and give him some money, you 'are' being kind, even
though you could try to persuade him to change his lifestyle.
Similarly, as a judge, you can be kind and sympathetic towards a
convicted criminal and still sentence him to death, hoping that by
paying for his crime he would another chance in the next life.


I agree, but I didn't say that it was reasonable for me to presume that
*you* were being reasonable. I indicated that in that particular
context,
it was reasonable for me to presume that you were offering the "the
future"
as an alternative analogy. I agree that would be an *un*reasonable
analogy,
but no more so than your previous use of "society" as an analogy for God.

I would accept that as a retraction :-)


Even though it wasn't one?


That's a false analogy because God is not a "mad" scientist

Presumably not a *human* mad scientist, anyway. But it's considerably
more
sound than your society/God analogy, because the scientist's powers in my
analogy were God-like (unlike society's powers). I don't see why any
actual
deity should be considered anything but insane for using its powers in
the
manner I described, and I don't see how that usage would be signficantly
different from *some* of the ways that the Quran claims that God uses His
powers. Why should it be okay for God to do that sort of thing simply
because God is God and not a God-like mad scientist? Just because God
and
the Quran say it's okay? The God who has supposedly created us with
minds
of our own?

Both your and my argument is based on the premise that God exists.

No, mine in this context has been based (*very* hypothetically) on the
premise that the God of *some* parts of the Quran exists.

If He exists for some parts then He exists for all parts!

Our
discussion is also within the context of Quran and whether or not the
Quranic concept of God, His Will, and the purpose of creation are
inherently consistent or meaningful. [If you disagree, then we have to
come back to square one and discuss whether God exists or not].

Okay by me, but that would take the discussion well outside the context of
the Quran, or any parts thereof.

Into what context would you put it in?

If you are judging from the perspective of Quran, God is Wise; man is
created "weak" [Quran 4:28], (not sinful as Christianity claims or a
programmed "creature" as your analogy suggests); and there is a purpose
to human existence. The problem with your analogy is that you are
'assuming' the worst about God and mankind, reducing God to the level
of a "mad scientist" and considering human beings as mere "creatures."
At least from my perspective, your analogy is not relevant at all.

If you approach this whole discussion from a point of view that this
world is a temporary examination room where people are challenged to
the best of their abilities and are judged on the basis of what choices
they make, that would make lot more sense. God has not created this
vast universe in vain (Quran 3:191). Based on what you do
here---proving yourself to be a responsible citizen of God's
universe--- you would be assigned a role in the next world. Good
people and extraterrestrial beings would spread out all over the
universe, building, creating, and doing what they always wanted.
According to Quran, Paradise would be as extensive as heavens and earth
combined (Quran 3:133). And that makes life meaningful.

You have taken a very narrow, almost demeaning; view of our human
condition. God does not want you to live the life of a monster or an
animal. He keeps challenging you to rise above that level, so that you
would be counted among the 'Chosen few' who succeeded, not those who
were led astray by their ego, petty prejudice, and other motives.

Since I don't eternally punish anyone for doing things I could've prevented
(nor even *temporarily* punish others for such as a general rule), I count
myself as *already* being far above the level of the deity depicted in
*some* parts of the Quran. But I'll grant that people like Gandhi and
Mother Teresa are far above my level.

Btw, can you think of any Muslim worthy of mentioning along with those
latter two people?

Let me ask you: If I propose to you that all criminals in your
correctional facility be turned over to people like Gandhi and Mother
Teresa, what would your answer be?
Regarding your question, I am sure every Muslim country has
philanthropists and aid workers who have done much for suffering
humanity. They are not well known in the West but it doesn't mean
that they don't exist. But it's an interesting topic and perhaps I
or somebody else should do some research and highlight contributions of
these people.

and human beings are not monsters

I said "creatures" in the analogy, not "monsters." They could be cute as
hamsters and still be destructive, or even evil.

Whether its "monster" or a "potentially destructive creature" it sounds
like the same thing when created by a "mad scientist." As I stated
above, your analogy doesn't work.

State all you like, but that mad scientist is very much like the deity
depicted in *some* parts of the Quran.

Not at all.

...perhaps you are, I certainly am not :-) God
is Wise and human beings have been given a brain to know right from
wrong, which can hardly be expected from a monster.

The mad scientist's creatures could also be smart, as well as cute. They
might even question the mad scientist's motives, or at least question
some
of the "explanations" of those motives as given to them in one of their
most
treasured books (which might or might not be the mad scientist's favorite
lab manual).

If they are so human-like, why not just call them human?
:-)

Okay. And since the mad scientist is so much like the God depicted in
*some* parts of the Quran, why not call him that?

In what way is your "mad scientist" same as what is depicted in
Quran? Compare your description with the 99 attributes of God given in
Quran.

You're absolutely right. I take several sentences, *compare* them to the
rest and vice versa, and *acknowledge* the contradictions. You might try
it
sometime, unless you're afraid you might inadvertently escape from the
safe
part of the lab. ;o)

I keep asking you, where is the "contradiction"?

If you really can't see the contradiction between passages like 2:256
("...And Allah guideth not those who reject faith") and 81:29 ("But ye shall
not will except as Allah wills..."), I don't know anything I could possibly
say to improve your vision.

2:264 says:

[2.264] O you who believe! do not make your charity worthless by
reproach and injury, like him who spends his property to be seen of men
and does not believe in Allah and the last day; so his parable is as
the parable of a smooth rock with earth upon it, then a heavy rain
falls upon it, so it leaves it bare; they shall not be able to gain
anything of what they have earned; and Allah does not guide the
unbelieving people.

And 81:29 says

[81.29] And you do not please except that Allah please, the Lord of the
worlds.

I don't know how many times I have to explain to you that God's
refusal to guide or to 'seal' somebody's heart comes AFTER that
person's refusal to listen to reason. Quran describes very clearly
WHEN God places a "seal" on somebody' heart:

[63.2] They make their oaths a shelter, and thus turn away from Allah's
way; surely evil is that which they do.
[63.3] That is because they believe, then disbelieve, so a seal is set
upon their hearts so that they do not understand.

So first you need to understand that God seals a person's heart ONLY
after that person has turned away from the truth. The "seal" is NOT
set upon their hearts PRIOR to their wrongdoing or turning away.

Verse 81:29, I already explained, has many interpretations but if you
read it with couple of lines before it, it would be obvious that Quran
is a "reminder" for those choose to be guided and once they have
made that decision----they believe---God allows that to happen. It is
with his permission---not forced conversion---that somebody is guided,
as He is the Lord of the Worlds. In other words, guidance is a charter
or a subscription from God, not an automatic right, granter to a person
who has chosen to believe and to do good.

Then you go your way, and we'll go ours :-)

That would certainly be in keeping with 109:6 ("Unto you your religion, and
unto me my religion." Too bad verses like that share the same book with
verses like 9:5 ("...slay the idolaters wherever ye find them...")

Are you an idolater? How can I find you and kill you? LOL

I was simply responding to your comment that Sunday school teacher
couldn't explain how Adam and Eve knew it would be an evil thing
before they ate the fruit. The answer is that God told them: "[2.35]
And We said: O Adam! Dwell you and your wife in the garden and eat from
it a plenteous (food) wherever you wish and do not approach this tree,
for then you will be of the unjust."

*If* God exists *and* actually put that tree there, *despite* having full
knowledge even before creating the first couple that it would inevitably
become an occasion for their disobedience, then I'd say that was actually
*at least* as unjust as their disobedience.

No, it was lesson number 1: God commands, man/woman disobeys, man/woman
realizes his/her wrongdoing, man/woman asks for forgiveness, God
forgives, but man/woman lose their home in Paradise, man/woman learns.
Time for lesson #2...

I'm quite a bit further along in the lesson plan than that: Stop taking
folk legends as holy writ.

Whatever.

.

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