Re: NSA given a back door into every copy of Windows sold

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"nemo_outis" <abc@xxxxxxx> wrote:

I was really trying to stay out of this, but.... :)

<usenet2006@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in
news:MPG.1ed857935fdceceb9896e0@xxxxxxxxxxxxx:

I think TwistyCreek was talking about the risk of a backdoor
being discovered, leading to extra caution and countermeasures by
the criminals. Not about ethics or legality.


The thrust of my argument is that Windows MAY have a backdoor. It is

That's not a "thrust", in fact it's not even really an argument at all.
It's synonymous to arguing that it may rain next week, or that you may
wear a blue shirt some day. It's acknowledging a possibility, not
stating when or if it will actually happen. I don't see where anyone at
all says it couldn't happen, just that it isn't probable.

closed-source, there are mountains of binaries, and it is
near-ubiquitous (its ubiquity means there are *many* potential spying
applications : crime, terror, business, diplomacy, politics, and on
and on.)

Circumstantial evidence. And a logical fallacy of foregone conclusion.
This part of your argument is nothing more than the assumption that if
something can happen, it will.

US intelligence agencies have means, motive and opportunity for
backdooring it, and there is a known case of them actually having
done so in a similar situation (Crypto AG). (It is conceivable as

Crypto AG was *not* a similar situation, except in the most tenuous
stretch of the term "similar". For one, Crypto AG was a foreign entity,
and as such the rights and laws that govern a local business like
Microsoft didn't apply. Neither did the morality of subversion against
one's own citizens.

In fact cases like this and Echelon go far to support the notion
that a local government *won't* back door locally produced software.
When such things are done, they're typically done outside the confines
of local jurisdiction, for the specific purpose of not subjecting
oneself to certain consequences of being discovered. It's strong
evidence that Big Brother is conscious of, and acting on, the premise
that getting caught doing this at home would be a folly of the greatest
order. The difference between seducing a stranger's wife, and your
brother's, if you will. :)

well that US intelligence agencies have applied "leverage" even to as
big a company as MS, using perhaps their current anti-trust battle
with the Justice department.)

Given all this, every prudent crook (and you and I as well) MUST TAKE
PRECAUTIONS AS IF Windows is backdoored, even if it is not known for
sure. To wait for disclosure would be foolhardy.

Agreed. But this is a matter of common sense security policies, not of
any actual suspicion that a back door exists. Your security should meet
your needs, you can never assume anything but the worst case
scenario... blah blah blah. :)

There would be far greater risk of public and political problems
if everybody (including large companies and foreign embassies)
found out that a backdoor in Windows was potentially spying on
them. Plus the afore-mentioned increased caution and
countermeasures.

It has recently come to light that US intelligence agencies are,
inter alia, spying on the telephone records of nearly all USians
(including corporations great and small, etc.). Yes, there's a

This is a long distance from actively subverting an operating system.
It could be argued, and it probably will, that there's no expectation
of this sort of privacy when you make a phone call over a public
network, or send an email over something similar. There is however an
expectation of privacy if you connect to a secure site, encrypt
files, or even store them locally without sharing them with anyone.

furore, but according to polls nearly two-thirds of USians don't seem
to mind.

Cite? I haven't seen this.

And I personally feel strongly that it's a first step, or maybe a 21st
step, towards what you're arguing already exists. In spite of the fact
that I can recognize arguments to the contrary as above. :(

And there are numerous other instances as well including spying at
the UN in direct violation of international treaties. This too has

Again an example far removed from compromising something inside your
own metaphorical home. It could be argued that the above "spying" could
have been accomplished with greater ease and more thoroughness by
compromising equipment outside the physical and jurisdictional
boundaries of the UN, but it was not.

been disclosed but the disclosure risk obviously wasn't enough to
deter the TLAs.

Risk of disclosure is obviously insufficient and inadequate
deterrence.

That's not obvious at all. In fact there's strong evidence to the
contrary, and only circumstantial evidence to support it.

<snippage due to finger stress>

I agree with the others who assert that back doors in Windows are a
logical improbability, and subscribe to the thought process that
supports that. I also agree that the contrary argument hinges on
nothing more than dehumanizing a government to the point people will
believe it. There's no real evidence to support the argument. Only
speculation and supposition.

*BUT*

I would certainly agree that the NSA or their kin would invest a *huge*
amount of resources in dissecting the world's most popular operating
system for little flaws and holes they could use to their advantage.
I'll not only concede, but argue, that those types of people not only
know about a number of security problems above and beyond public
disclosures, but actively withhold that information from everyone
including Microsoft.

I'd say that the idea Microsoft is back doored not only fails as a
matter of logic, but as a matter of necessity. It's probably not even
an issue at the NSA because they have ways of accomplishing most or all
of what they want with no active intervention at all, and consequently
little or no risk of being discovered. ;)

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