Re: Clinton unveils socialist medical plan

On Sep 19, 10:52 am, "Patriot Games" <Patr...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
"Igor The Terrible" <igor_the_terri...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in messagenews:1190157869.777723.115150@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
On Sep 19, 10:52 am, "Patriot Games" <Patr...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
"Igor The Terrible" <igor_the_terri...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in

Please show me where tens of millions of Americans are moving to Canada for
the "free" healthcare......

Canada is not even a model to look at. According to the WHO, they are
not in much better shape than we are. France ranked #1 in the world.


I know the problem exists. There is NO solution to this problem.
Small
businesses simply can't afford to offer ANY healthcare insurance that is in
any way employer-funded.

Ahh...your getting warm. There is always a solution unless a
fundamental law of mathematics are violated. The solution is perhaps
evasive or simply requires more thought.


But its very readily available on your own. You can go buy it just like you
go buy anything else.


Of course it is. BUT, not at group rates. And this is a HUGE
problem. Some people can't even get insurance because the industry
cherry picks.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/05/23/cbsnews_investigates/main2843007.shtml?source=search_story



The notion that your employer OWES you ANYTHING other than a paycheck is
bogus.

More accurately, the notion that your employer OWES you ANYTHING other than
a paycheck is SOCIALIST


Like all the fortune 1000 companies that offer health insurance
packages as part of their compensation packages to attract and keep
employees? Seems to me this is something that stands on the forefront
of free market capitalism.




Something else, how many stuck in the McJob income range can afford to
get sick? You know who is picking up the tab for them AND the
uninsured entering the most expensive point of our health care
system? You are, I am, and anyone else who has insurance in the way
of higher premiums.
Wrong. Those jobs have healthcare insurance, what used to be called major
medical.
With how much of a deductable? Most can't afford a $500.00 out of pocket
payout without a major disruption in their life.

Most of these low-end health insurance products are based on the old Major
Medical health insurance products. They don't cover lots of small stuff and
they don't kick in until AFTER a deductible of about $1,000 per year. (The
worst ones are based on a deductible per year PER condition.)

Yep. And these products are delivered to people who can't afford it.
And when they default, guess who picks up the tab? Tell me PG, have
you seen premiums go down in price?

I'm not sure what you are paying for insurance,
but I am really getting fed up with these pricks. If I couldn't write
this *** off my taxes, I would be a statistic. My neighbor is paying
over $1,700.00/mo for just himself and his wife!!! Granted, both have
health problems so this I guess this is the perfect opportunity for
their piece of *** insurance company to clean house on them? He is
still 6 years from retirement but the time he retires, how much more
will he have contributed to his Roth IRA and his 401k? That is
bull*** from the word go. What is the fucking point of going out
working your ass off only to hand out money to insurance companies?
I've about had it with these pricks.
Then ATTACK the pricks and NOT THE Rich.....
Who is attacking the rich????

Hitlary, Buckwheat, Edwards, etc.

*** those goddamned inbreeds, They offer NOTHIHNG but throwing money
at an unsolved problem. I'm proposing gutting the system and building
something that will work.


In America we regulate the utility companies. So mayb we need to regulate
the health care INSURANCE industry. Maybe we need to regulate the health
care industry.

That will choke the system. Last and LEAST, it will upset
shareholders


The FIRST thing we need to do is understand the profound difference between
the health care insurance industry and the health care industry.

Already understood.


A really good first step would be to totally separate the part of the health
care insurance industry that handles medical malpractice form any and all
parts of the health care insurance industry that deals with us consumers.

Great! You acknowledged a major problem. I already know this.
Caregivers are a prime target for bottom feeding litigious scum. Ask
any OB-GYN trying to keep their practice afloat in Florida. Some are
having to work around $250k/yr in malpractice insurance. ...And the
fucking state cannot understand why so many of them said fuck this
*** and left?


Nothing is free.
Wrong. Under the Socialist Democrats healthcare IS free because they
will
rob from the rich to give to the poor
Wrong. What I proposed, everyone pays in an equal amount. At $250
billion divided up per capita, you are looking at roughly $ 17.50/wk
(not including other revenue sources which would make your premiums
even less) and you would end up with better coverage than you would
from any PPO plus a $0.00 deductible.
See other posts I made in this thread regarding a crude social model.
I think you need to triple your cost estimate.
Only for the initial startup. Once it transitions over to a
preventative system, costs will level out around the $250 billion
range if not lower.

I seriously doubt it.

Remember there are checks and balances and
incentives that motivate people to live healthy lifestyles which will
even lower dependence on the system.

Checks and balances? What? What incentives? A co-pay per office visit?
We already know that does nothing to change lifestyles.

PG, your not looking at the bigger picture in terms of numbers. Look
at it this way;

* every time somebody drops out of the system, the funds pool gets
smaller
* every time some uninsured patient stiffs care givers, this loss is
passed on to patients who are insured.
* insurance companies pay these now inflated prices and turn around
and stick it to you in higher premiums, higher deductibles, less
coverage, or some combination of the three. There is a reason why
insurance premiums soaring past the inflation rate. If you think you
MIGHT get screwed in a social health care system, you ARE getting gang
raped in the current system

In a social model, EVERYBODY pays in (bigger funds pool) and since
more people pay in, the costs per person declines.
THIS very issue is one of the biggest problem private insurance
faces. The younger and the healthier segments of our population are
NOT paying into the system; for reasons that they can't afford to or
they elect not to. Now that average population (or medium...which
ever way you want to look at it) is getting older, heath issues arise
and the money is not there to cover the increasing costs. See where
this is heading?


Remember, most people don't see their physician every day.

Because its not free. YET.

Nothing is ever free. Somebody has to pay for it. The goal is value;
but the challenge is to build a model that is affordable and works for
everyone.


If things were left as they are, then I would agree about tripling
costs. I'm proposing to completely gut and restructure the system
while keeping out elements that would drive out costs.

The two largest cost elements right now are malpractice insurance and the
alleged R&D overhead on drugs.

Yep.


We could develop a national self-insurance fund for medical malpractice and
entirely eliminate that as a cost element.

That could work.

We would also then have to
regulate the litigation process, cap attorney fees and expenses and
drastically limit jury awards.

THIS IS AN ABSOLUTE MUST!!!!!

If we extended that to product liability for
drug manufacturers and banned their advertising on TV we could reasonably
expect very significant healthcare and healthcare cost reductions.

Yep. Also reward phama companies that concentrate on CURES. NOT
controlling a disease or ailment. IF, we went with a social model
this would virtually give the green light for stem cell R&D. The only
remaining obstacle would be the religious whiners.



Ask any doctor what percent of his/her total gross annual income goes to his
medical malpractice insurance. Its HUGE. And he/she DOES NOT pay it - we
pay it.

You do not have to tell me that.


Same is true for hospitals.

Yep

Every drug manufacturer budgets no less than $500 million PER PRODUCT
ANNUALLY for advertising. We should outlaw that yesterday.

Yeah, that and giving doctors kickbacks to use their yet unproven
product. Wait till you see what some of their NET margins are.

Other possibilities...change the financing paradigm. No public
companies. Make it easier for them to raise capital either through
bond issues, private equity, and tax breaks (capital preservation) for
meeting certain goals.

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