Re: Dead soldier deflates the Texas cross defiler!


"gaffo" <gaffo@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:IyzMe.1542$AT7.627@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Randy Cox wrote:
>> "gaffo" <gaffo@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>> news:w5vMe.2020$r54.1977@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>
>>>Randy Cox wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>"J.C." <jcsplaceofbikesboozeandbabes@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>>it CANNOT be won Randy. Short of destroying ourselves to win it. Is THAT
>>>worth it to you?

Sometimes when wrong thinking is pervasive, the only way to right the wrong
mind is to let the body go forward driven by the wrong mind. If you cannot
reason with a wrong mind (as we failed to reason with the neo-cons before
this war) then the only way is to send the wrong mind on a futile mission.
I don't want anyone to die, that's why I opposed the Iraq war in the
beginning, but it is on now. Iraqis will continue to die whether we are
there are not. There is a very slim chance Iraq could learn to
self-determine. Despite the liars....Iraq has the most liberal mind of all
the Islamic countries.
>> That's where we are now. We still have the responsibility.
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> which we are unable (not simply unwilling) to fullfill.

I admit that with current mindset we are "unable" to win in Iraq. I respect
your position, but just as if a member of your family trashed a park during
your family's visit you'd have a certain responsibility to clean up after
them, I still think we should not leave Iraqis in chaos and disorder until
they have enough order to formally tell us to leave.
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>> There a lots of people in Iraq that want us to stay.
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> ?? really? All I've heard quoted want us to leave ASAP. Some tolerate us -
> others fight us, most are in betweeen.
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> none "want" us there.

I agree with you in the final sense. If there was a shoot out in your
living room and the cops came. You wouldn't "want" the cops roaming around
your house...but you might not want them to leave until after the shooters
were dealt with.

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>> They hate the torture and the bad planning and the disrespect George Bush
>> has brought, but they still need the protection of our military.
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> yes. they need that protection. One (among many) responsibility which we
> are unable to provide fully, or even reasonably well.

I think we give them some protection, but the rules of engagment frighten
the Iraqis almost as much as the disorder. Of course, they are aware of the
thousands of innocent people that are hurt caught between the bad policy,
inadequate troop levels, and the insurgency. I just think they still hope
we can adapt our policy to a "winning" one.
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>> We promised them a dream and we haven't done the best we can do to make
>> that dream a reality.
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> yes we did, and I don't agree, I think we have and are doing our
> best...............and still getting are arse kicked. Quite simply our
> best ain't good enough.

I don't agree that a war with George W. Bush driving is the best we've got.
I don't think Kerry was the best we've got.
>
> and no we cannot make that dream a reality. we lack the ability, and soon
> we will lack the will also.
>
> only reality will be a civil war, and in 5-10 yrs there will be a winner
> (or three winners/states), and peace over there after the winner wins.
>
> Probably Sadr will be one of them. He's a tough bird.

Well, it is possible you are right. People ready to
self-determine...........SELF-DETERMINE! It starts with one! Each Iraqi
has that option. Civil wars are ugly things!
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>> We need a new plan.
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> only other plan (alternative) is to leave.
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> there is no "third" plan or Salvage Plan (the one you keep looking
> for)...................your El Dorado.

I agree that a workable plan doesn't float through the collective mind ready
to be assembled and activated. I have a plan! Bidden has a plan. There
must be a better plan than the non-plan Bush has.
>> We need to be the best that America can be rather than the worst the
>> blood thirsty monsters of America can be. Even at our best with half a
>> million soldiers over there, we still might fail, but we broke them and
>> we owe them that much commitment.
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> Yes we owe them. No we are not that "best". We will not fix them. America
> is an Imperial Power, beneficent if possible, but she is NOT a charity.
>
> YOU are that moral of a person, the majority of us are less moral than
> you. Statisically we, The People are far more moral than the Bastards
> runningour Government - but not moral enough to payback what we owe the
> Iraqis.
>
> We have turned our Back on Taiwan and coddle China. Raped the American
> Indians, owned Slaves, looked away when the Germans killed the
> Jews,.......etc.
>
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> We are a quasi-moral Nation - but as a People we are also ignorant - not
> out of inablity to inform, but out of willfull ignorance born out of
> choice and abduction of moral responsibility.

Yep, most of our ignorance is willfull.
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>> We've only lost a couple of thousand Americans, but we've killed tens of
>> thousands of Iraqi.
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> and yet when 1000s Iraqis die, no outcry at home. but when 14 Marines
> die - LOOKOUT!!
>
> its obvious Raghead Souls wiegh 1/1000th of White Man American Souls.

Yeah, I remember the burnt human carnage on the road from Kuwait back to
Bagdad after Desert Storm. Then I remember the tears for the Blackwater
corpses hanging from the bridge.

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>> We need to finish what we started!
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> WE CANNOT!!!!!!!!!!! - WE ARE THE RUSSIANS IN AFGHANISTAN!! - you still
> think we can win!!

We are currently the "RUSSIANS IN AFGHANISTAN" but underneath the cowardice
of 9-11....we are still America....not Russia. During all those times you
mentioned the Indians and all.........there was the hope of a better
America. It is that hope for the better and the responsible that pin my
hopes. If you don't believe, then it will not be.
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>> When 100,000 Republican and Democrat sons and daughters are dead and a
>> million without arms or legs, then if the job is still not done, I'll be
>> for cutting and running and holding all the blood thirsty Americans to
>> account for the unwise war.
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> America will never be willing to pay this price. Short of National
> Survival (like the USSR vs the Germans - where 1/6th of the population
> died) we will not fight in Iraq with such loses.
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> no amount of ol money will counteract the outcry from mothers if the above
> number ever become a reality.
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> of course they will not. In fact we lack the stomach (let alone the moral
> fiber as a People) to tolarate much more than 10,000 i'd say. MAX.
>
> not without a reason for being there or a real threat to our national
> survival.
>
> we will "cut and run" - when we can spin it to save face. A "peace with
> honour" bull*** thing again. I'm sure the spin masters are up late even
> now thinking how they can spin it so that a defeat looks like victory.
>
> It souldn't be too hard - most Americans these last three years have been
> convinced "up is down" "war is peace" "slavery is freedom" and "ignorance
> is strengh".

Stop confusing me with irrefutable facts!
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>> I don't want to hear them complain how we really won Iraq and the
>> peaceniks gave it away.
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> - that is EXACTLY what you will hear!
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> Folks like that are cowards and will never face their own self-denial
> (i.e. reality). they will create any lame excuse to blame a defeat on
> anyone other than the government who sent them there. for to blame the
> gov. is in effect blaming yourself for being played for a dope, and
> fighting for a lie.
>
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> only the brave can admit to their own foolishness and learn wisdom from
> it.
>
> ALSO folks like that would rather we nuc the whole God damned place in
> order to "Win" than to admit defeat. Of course such a win is genocide and
> not really a "win".

Okay, now you are scaring me. If *** Cheney suddenly became president, I
would immediately shut up about needing to save Iraq.
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>> I want their sons and daughters to leave their million dollar homes in
>> Plano, Texas and feel the 140 degree heat in Iraq.
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> me too..............it will never happen. ;-(.
>
> I know I'm not going to Iraq out of some National debt!!.........I'm too
> selfish for that.
>
> I'm an isolationist anyway. I had no problem with Saddam raping and
> pilliging his people. Reform comes from within - if the People really had
> had enough they would have rose up on their own.........like Iran had.

I'm an isolationist to the extent that I don't believe we should impose our
ways upon others. I believe we should allow communists to find out for
themselves that communism doesn't work. I believe the responsibility of a
free nation is to allow other nations to be free to differ from our own in
whatever way they wish...so long as they do not resort to genocide. There I
believe the whole world has a role to stay the genocidal hand.
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>> I want us to force ourselves to learn how to at least try to win the
>> hearts and minds of the people of Iraq.
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> - too late. invading them made that impossible.
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>> I want us to win.........but if we don't.....I want us to feel an
>> appropriate pain commensurate with the destruction we brought upon Iraq.
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> Won't happen either way..
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> not fixable and we lack the moral backbone to take the pain. We will leave
> the pain back in Iraq...................declair "VICTORY" as we tuck
> tail.................all will self-delude themselves that we "won" and all
> is ok in the world and get on with our selfish
> small-insolated-isolated-ignoranceisbliss-world familiy centric lives.
>
> Afterall Veitnam was a "tie" right????.........we didn't really LOSE, did
> we?
>
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> or maybe "nobody won"?........................anyway we will self-delude
> and spin it in our own minds (after that spin is fed us by the crooks in
> the Administration of the time) in our own personal ways..........most
> will buy the spin, the rest of us willbe "america haters". or just
> "downers".
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>> We broke it; let us expend something trying to fix it before we quit.
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> that is a moral argument. there is nothing moral about this war (or any?
> war).
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> you cannot create a moral codex from an immoral foundation Randy.
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>> I want the coffins of our dead children to break our black hearts until
>> we learn that democracy can not be imposed or until we learn that it can.
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> we will learn that when we tuck tail and run..............(under our
> self-denial)............it will probably take 20 yrs though. ;-/.
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>> My children are not war age, but I have grandchildren and nieces and
>> nephews. My grandchildren think George Bush is great and that America
>> should force Iraq to be free. My grandchildren have black hearts of
>> ignorance.
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> they are young and ignorant of the world. I'll not slam "young" however.
> Some young - yes even children are WISE. not many, but a select few are so
> wise that you as an adult accurally feel a little creeped out by them.
> Almost spiritual experience.
>
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> I heard a 8 yr old black boy in 1991 turn to his mother and ask why the
> dime store was selling playing cards with pictures of Iraqi POWs on them
> when they were people and some had been killed, and why would some boy
> want to have cards with such pictures on them.
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> there are alot of ignorant and foolish 70 yr olds too.
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>> They have been seduced by George Bush's lies. I'd rather they risk
>> losing their lives and see the up close results of their faulty beliefs
>> than to live a lifetime in America supporting evil policy around the
>> world. If they see the war close up, maybe their black hearts of
>> ignorance and arrogance will be broken and their souls saved.
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> maybe. some folks are not savable though. seems some folks were
> pre-destined to be fools and learn nothing of wisdom.

Don't think I'm not torn by the arguments you make. I fear advocating
continued carnage, but sometimes when their is unspent hate a war has to
progress until the hate is drained. When the body is infected, as much of
the invading germs as possible are pushed to one spot...a boil....then the
hand squeezes the boil and pushes out the unsalvageble blood until the
infection is gone. Maybe we need to push the infected ignorance and hate to
the battle and drain it before we abandon the infection that still runs deep
through out our national body.
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>> If they can save Iraq in the process, then something good might yet come
>> out of something bad.
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> only good that come out of Iraq is if we simply leave and let it go into
> civil war.
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> civil war will make the US economy implode! oil will skyrocket!!! and
> folks will panic!! (i think that will be our just reward for the war)
>
> during the civil war some will die - but in 5 yr or so it will be three
> Nations and they will be stable enough to exist and trade with other
> Nations.
>
> they will probably be dictatorships - but that is for the People over
> there to determine and deal with. not our concern.

There really are elements in Iraq that want peace and democracy. I am sad
that when they reached out to America we didn't have the intellect of
freedom to help them as liberal England, France helped us when we took our
first shakey steps as an experimental nation.
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>> I want every family that voted for this war in the sanctuary of their
>> home, to invest at least one of their children in the war they made
>> happen. I hope good comes from it, but let the coffins of our children,
>> the maimed bodies of our children, or the scarred minds of our children
>> return to speak to us of the costs of war that seem so attractive when
>> the flags are waving.
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> indeed! - in a perfectly just world.....................but sadly......

I know, but if you don't aim high, you'll only achieve mediocracy..
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>> You know I didn't support starting this war, but we now have the
>> responsibility of it. If you walk into a china shop and break the
>> china.....you've got to pay for it.
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> not if you lack the money for it and so are not capable.
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>> If you break a lot of china and run out of the store, you'll carry the
>> debt of that crime with you for the remainder of your life.
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> yes, but you do not necessarily PAY that debt.
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>> If you pay as much as you can afford to pay, but never put the pieces
>> back together again, you'll leave the shop better than that one that
>> refused to take responsibility and ran away.
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> True!!!!!!! but America is not going to take responsibility. We never did
> before, why do you think we will this time?

Well, it is important to me to spend my one voice toward that effort....even
if I ultimately fail.
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>> We haven't paid the price for all that we have broken in Iraq, yet.
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> We will REFUSE to pay it. THAT is why we will eventually "Cut and run".
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>> If we don't bring democracy to Iraq, then let us at least learn that
>> there is a price to pay for invading another country.
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> indeed. I KNOW we will learn that lessen regardless of what we do.

Obviously, we didn't learn in Vietnam. Here we go again!
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>> There is a chance we could pull this off with better planning and a
>> realistic commitment.
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> NO!!!!!!!! there is no chance. We lost Irag March18th2003.
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>> We've already made the commitment.
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> huh? - tell me we MADE a commitment AFTER the job is completed. Claiming a
> commitment before the job is started is just empty rhetoric.

Okay, I chose the wrong word. When we took out their government, we took on
the responsibility. If we had made the commitment, we would have sent a
million troops and a 100,000 instructors to implement a plan to teach them
democracy and bring them to their first vote with occupational peace to that
point. Then we could have left them upon their own. I would have opposed
that, in that I agree that democracy flows from within the hearts of the
individual not from without.....but that would have been a commitment. All
we have done with this discount effort is assume the responsibility for
Iraq. Now as we leave, we leave as irresponsible former world leaders.
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>> Let us now pay for that which we have bought by breaking it.
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> I will pray with you Randy............

Where two or more agree.............

Randy
>
> --
>
> It is not only [the juror's] right, but his duty...to find the verdict
> according to his own best understanding, judgment, and conscience, though
> in direct opposition to the directionof the court.
>
> John Adams, 1771
>


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