Re: Books



Cliff wrote:
On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 21:28:17 -0800, BottleBob <bottlbob@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:


Cliff wrote:
On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 05:06:35 -0800, BottleBob <bottlbob@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Cliff:

Because the Big Bang is presented in the standard model as being essentially an overachieving vacuum fluctuation.
Is it?
But YOU know about T-1, right?
Cliff:

Because I'm making assumptions in my little thought experiment here. As I said, I'm assuming its an overachieving vacuum fluctuation.
So what material object exists BEFORE a vacuum fluctuation creates a virtual particle? Why none at all.

You are making claims about T-1, right?

Cliff:

Do you believe the Big Bang the BEGINNING of the universe as the Standard Model posits, or not? If not, what existed BEFORE?


What existed BEFORE the Big Bang started? If you've got material or energy in existence then the Big Bang can't logically be the start, now can it.

Don't you know? Ask the Lint?

So you have absolutely no cogent response?

Here's something interesting along these lines:

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http://ourundiscovereduniverse.com/downloads/sampchap1.pdf

UNIVERSAL CONSERVATION

The conservation of energy is the cornerstone of modern physics, yet is blatantly violated by a universal origin from nothing - ex nihilo. There are four ways to address this problem:

• Vacuum fluctuations. Many cosmologists believe that the universe’s origin did not
violate energy conservation because gravitational energy is intrinsically negative
and all of the universe’s matter/light energy is balanced by its total negative gravitational energy. This is an interesting idea, but there is absolutely no evidence to support it. If it were possible to produce matter from empty space and account for the difference with negative gravitational energy, why has this never been observed? Why is it not happening now? What limits the process? Why can’t matter vanish and take a comparable gravitational potential with it? And there is a
more basic inconsistency to consider. The Big Bang allegedly produces space through expansion. How can there be vacuum fluctuations without a vacuum?

• Not in effect. In this scenario, energy conservation came into existence after the universe emerged. While it is true that conservation is meaningless in the absence of something to conserve, it is just as true that the two are inseparable.

• Approximation. Perhaps energy conservation is only an approximation of the true situation, and the total energy in any interaction varies by a tiny, currently undetectable amount. But even if this were the case, it has no bearing on the salient issue. Energy conservation has been documented with sufficient precision to preclude the spontaneous emergence of even the smallest traces of matter, and the material scattered across deep space constitutes far more than a trace amount.
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One possible minor local violation that supposedly happens constantly are vacuum fluctuations - where virtual particles (which may become real particles under certain conditions) just POP into existence in the vacuum of space.
Not a violation.
Perhaps, perhaps not. I don't think our current measuring ability is sufficient to definitively determine if vacuum fluctuations which create virtual particles (which may resolve into actual particles) is a violation or not.
Blind faith is NOT science, but is an aspect of religion. Is science your religion, eh?
"Vacuum fluctuations" are pretty much required by Quantum Mechanics,
right?
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http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=are-virtual-particles-rea

Quantum mechanics allows, and indeed requires, temporary violations of conservation of energy, so one particle can become a pair of heavier particles (the so-called virtual particles), which quickly rejoin into the original particle as if they had never been there.
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You claimed it was a "local violation" of the conservation laws.
I suspect the phrasing in SciAm is bad/poor.
Ever since Rupurt bought it ....

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http://science.jrank.org/pages/7195/Virtual-Particles.html

The meaning of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle is that "something" can arise from "nothing" if the "something" returns to the "nothing" after a very short time—an interval too short in which to be observed. These micro-violations of energy conservation are not only allowed to happen, they do, and so "empty" space is seething with particle-antiparticle pairs that come into being and then annihilate each other again after a very short interval. Although these particles cannot be observed individually, their existence can be demonstrated.
================================================================

The lowest allowed energy is not zero.

Oh? And what is the energy density of interstellar or intergalactic space?

Now, if due to some outside force one of the virtual particles is separated from it's twin, so that they are prevented from annihilating each other - then the TEMPORARY violation of conservation of energy becomes a PERMANENT violation, eh? Funny how that works. LOL

No violation happens.

I already posted two cites that question that claim when conditions permit the "virtual" particles to become real. Here are a couple more:

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http://www.howeverythingworks.org/print1.php?QNum=872

In principle, a vacuum is a region of space containing no real particles (no atoms, molecules, electrons, or other subatomic particles). Because the universe is filled with particles that pass easily through lots of matter (neutrinos, for example), it's very hard to obtain a true vacuum. But let's suppose that you could actually obtain a region of space with no real particles in it. That region of space would still contain large numbers of virtual particles at any given moment. These virtual particles are temporary quantum fluctuations of the vacuum; brief excursions of the quantum fields associate with various subatomic particles. These excursions are permitted by the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, which allows temporary violations of the conservation of mass/energy as long as those violations are extremely brief. While the presence of these virtual particles can only be detected indirectly, they are not massless. Except for their short lifetimes, these particles have characteristics similar to those of normal particles.
===========================================================

===========================================================
http://www.nat.vu.nl/~scharnh/m16newsc.htm

QED predicts that the vacuum, far from being empty, seethes with short-lived, or virtual particles: pairs of electrons and positrons - their antiparticles - which come into existence and disappear again for fleetingly small intervals. These are known as vacuum fluctuations (New Scientist. Science. 2 December 1989).

The apparent violation of the conservation of energy is permitted by Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, a cornerstone of quantum theory.
===========================================================

--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

.

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