Re: Processing complex parts?

On Fri, 11 May 2007 23:51:12 GMT, BottleBob <bottlbob@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:



Cliff wrote:

On Sun, 22 Apr 2007 22:41:41 GMT, BottleBob <bottlbob@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Cliff:

Why would a shop want to stop what they are doing and spend uncounted
man-hours per day actually programming RFQ's (request for quotes), for
jobs they may never actually get?
Does that really sound like a profitable way to do business to you?

Consider the options:
A) You underbid & get the job. You lose a pile of money.
B) You overbid & the smarter guy gets the job. You wasted your
time & effort already.
C) You know your times & costs & bid properly & get the job. You have
to program it anyway.

Cliff:

You forgot at least one option:

D) You quote jobs based upon years of experience, knowledge of your
equipment, awareness of what your work force is capable of - so you
don't waste any time at all doing unnecessary test programs.

I said nothing about "test programs".

With all those years & process & tooling capture in your
CAD/CAM or CAM system or head you should be pretty fast
& accurate, right?
More accurate than a guess.

Remember that profit margins in most US businesses
are about 5% of sales. If you are off by 5% ....


To do a program for bidding purposes with a CAD/CAM or CAM system
for many types of work should really take little or no more time than
other methods of counting holes, etc. and you really should know
what tooling, feeds & speeds & have those handy in the programming
system/environment just as some of the quasi-expert systems do.

I don't think you understand the intricacies and dynamics of small job
shop quoting.


Did I restrict my comments to "small job shop quoting"?
Nope.

Any idea why such fold so easily?

Sometimes you get RFQ's that you will NEVER get because
you are being used as only a reference point for a vendor that wants to
give the job to their buddy, but needs three quotes to show management.

Then decline to quote.

Sometimes you intentionally quote jobs low just to get the job because
work is slow.

Because you guessed before, overbid & lost customers?
Or went after jobs for which you are not best equipped?

You are losing money on badly bid jobs & will make it up in
volume on money-losing jobs, right?

Sometimes you intentionally quote jobs high because
you're already swamped with work.

If you don't want it why bid? Or are you going to dump
another customer if you get the job?
Or are you swamped because you underbid?

Sometimes you quote a series of jobs
low because the parts are similar and can be run together.

How does that make it low?

Sometimes
you quote some jobs low because you know you can sublet to job to
another vendor you trust that has a lower shop rate. Etc., etc., etc.

Not good for either of you, IMHO, unless you are perhaps trading
on knowing who is best equipped for specific work. And soon
the customer may know too ...

Parts are made up of features ... you should already know about most
types of features.

This might also show where you are weak if you pay attention &
learn from your results. And help you learn what NOT to consider
bidding on as you KNOW you are not best-equipped for it.

We use travelers for the jobs we get. And on those travelers before
the employees start the job they all write in their estimate of
programming & setup time and run time for the parts. When the jobs are
gone over after the job is finished the person can see if they over or
under estimated the job. We've been doing this for years and it's a
great way to fine tune your estimating skills.

And how is it working out? Off by 50% or worse much of the time?
I'm reminded of a guy with pallets ....

A program for bidding purposes need not be a final program
IF you know what you need to later add/change & the costs
of those details. Hence it might take a bit less time to create.
Consider your thin holding "tabs" as an example ...

Each jog shop has a slightly different focus and type of work that they
excel in doing. Just as in most things, there are no absolutes that fit
every single case. But having said that, I would still tend to believe
that most job shops would be out of business in short order if they
pre-programmed all their RFQ's.

It's a tool. Others may use fancy spreadsheets or estimating software
or hand-calculate machining times or ....
--
Cliff
.

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