Re: What's the best program CAD-CAM ?

"John R. Carroll" wrote:
>
> BottleBob wrote:

> > John:
> >
> > I just would like to touch on a couple of points. We seem to have a
> > difference of opinion here that may be perspective related. My
> > perspective is coming from a shop productivity standpoint.
>
> Mine too Bob. Our difference is that I actually know the learning curves and
> you don't.

John:

I didn't mean to rain on your parade, I probably should have sent my
comments in an E-mail. I assumed that you get about zero sales through
this newsgroup. Is that assumption correct, or in error?
As far as learning curves go, I learned Gibbs by reading the manual and
doing the tutorials at the shop on my Christmas week off 10 years ago.
But I seem to always be the one tasked with training anyone that comes
in as a programmer and needs to learn Gibbs. I'm training a lathe guy
right now in Gibbs milling module. So I'm aware of the learning curve
for the handful of people I've helped to learn it, to do our type of
work.
But I'm sure that doesn't begin to compare with your experience in
training literally hundreds of people.


> I also have more confidence in your ability to learn than you seem to :>)

LOL

>
> > If a new
> > CAM system is implemented a person trying to learn the program
> > themselves will probably be pretty much useless for the first couple
> > of weeks (productively speaking), and may not get up to real speed
> > for as much as a few months.
>
> Wrong, and I'd be willing to bet you.

Perhaps. But this particular difference of opinion isn't likely to be
resolved any time soon.

>
> > Now paid training will no doubt speed
> > up this process, but if it's offsite training there still will be a
> > gap in productivity for that person, while he is paid his wages as
> > well as any training fees. Multiply that by the number of
> > programmers in your shop and a CAM change can become a very serious
> > business decision.
>
> So is the creeping losses people suffer with products they "know" but are
> effectively handicapping there competetive edge ten or more percent each
> day. Add that up and you will see where the real money is. It isn't in
> software or training.

That might be very difficult to accurately quantify. I remember years
ago (during one of my "Jon Wars" episodes) doing some objective timed
tests for programming certain operations and getting responses from
others using different systems. Some sort of independent and objective
testing of different CAD/CAM systems would IMO, be very beneficial to
the machining trades.

>
> > If the shop in question has some turnover in programmers, this
> > training and getting up to speed can have an adverse effect on a
> > company's finances and work deadlines. And this isn't even taking
> > into consideration all the programs that have been saved for years in
> > the former CAM system's format that probably won't be able to be used
> > by a new CAM system from a different manufacturer.
>
> Legacy data is an issue but not a huge one. It is really fairly easy to
> manage if you have the tools to do so.

The legacy data issue may not be huge one for companies that mainly do
new prototype work, but then again it may be a significant issue for
companies that do a lot of repeat production work.
Geometry can be easily exported, but in my experience tool lists,
toolpaths and multiple operations generated in one CAM system don't seem
to be easily transferable to other CAM systems.


>
> When I bought in to Peerless the FADAL guys all thought I was going to run
> out and buy a FADAL or three too.
> I didn't even call them, in spite if the fact that I had been running one of
> their "poster boy" shops. The locals couldn't compete with me and in 18
> months time I had one of the best 15 man tool rooms in CA, bar none. I had
> also paid off 2 million dollars in new equipment in 2 years. You can't lead
> from behind Bob but if it was easy everybody would be doing it.

Well, I more than tend to believe any success in your Peerless business
experience was due more to YOUR overall influence rather than any
particular brand of machines chosen.


> I don't have sales hurdles at all beyond the fact that North America sucks
> as a market for the most part, but that's another story. I do not even
> bother to maintain my web site these days to reflect the products we offer.
> My sales are all word of mouth and referals. One of the local MTB's doesn't
> even refer to me by name. When they want to get something done properly they
> call either " our guy" or " that SOB Carroll". I haven't let them down yet
> and it's because I am not product loyal. I know who my customers are and -
> very importantly - who they AREN'T. The single product approach isn't good
> for either me or my base so I stopped doing it. Software Mfg.'s are just
> vendors to me and I treat them the same way you would your local auto repair
> shop. They get every bit of courtesy and respect that they earn, just like
> me. One size fits all just doesn't get it with me and I make that very very
> clear. That rubs some folks the wrong way, as I am sure you guessed. Some of
> them even post here from time to time.

So what size companies do most of your sales come from?

1-10 Machinists
10-50 Machinists
50-200 Machinists
200+ Machinists

--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob
.

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