Re: poly vs. nitro clear coat - age



Squier wrote:
In article <Q6adnfqWO4QL0pXbnZ2dnUVZ_g-dnZ2d@xxxxxxxxxxx>, Don Evans
<gtrdonevans@xxxxxxx> wrote:

Squier wrote:
In article <130ftsmeehj3d15@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, Jim
<askme@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Guncho wrote:
The finish on a solid body guitar has no affect on the tone what
so ever.


This is incorrect so any newbies please disregard it. Keith is
wrong.


I challenge ANYBODY to tell the difference in tone between two
solid body guitars, one with nitro, one with poly. Violins,
acoustic guitars, etc. are different. And I own a vintage nitro
finished Strat. There are just too many other variables that make
the finish on a SOLID body guitar much less of a factor. That's
my opinion.



On an acoustic I'd say that the poly is superior because its
thinner.


I'm pretty sure that's totally incorrect as well.

Depends. I'm pretty sure that my Ibanez Artwood is poly, and it is
very thin, thin enough that you can feel the grain in the solid
Engelmann spruce top.



Chris



Ok - here's my take on this - enough of the voodoo -

String energy, Solid Body Electric Guitars and pickups.

Yes - the wood (and general construction of the guitar and all its
parts)
does matter but ONLY as it relates to either facillitating
or damping string vibration. The construction of the guitar matters
but only as it relates to the enhancement or detriment of string
vibration.

You talk like that's a small thing. It isn't. If it was, you would
have trouble telling a Strat with humbuckers from a Les Paul.

Once you plug in a solid body elec. the pups can only deal with
string
vibration and then send it down the line as elec. signal.
The pups cannot 'hear' or see wood vibrations directly.

Tap on a pickup ... if it isn't silent, you are off base here.


ok... continue on reading if u dare

I dared last time. I'm not going to respond to every point. You
repeat yourself a lot here, so I'll just try to pick up the stuff I
really disagreed with.



What you are hearing when you place the headstock against another
piece of resonant wood is the residual energy being dissapated and
transfered from one piece of wood to the next. You are creating a
diaphragm... nothing to do with sustain - more with the ability to
increase the volume of the the resonant energy that is loaded into
the wood of a solid body after you strum or plucj the strings
(energy transferance.. hand - strings - wood and other parts of
guitar).

Not quite sure how you "load" energy into a guitar, but OK.
Anything that dissapates energy will affect the energy source to
some degree. In this case, we're talking about the strings. When
you touch the guitar to anything, you are affecting the resonance of
the body, and so it's effect on the vibration of the string.

however the pickups can only 'see' the energy of the metal strings
which form an electro-magnetic feast for the pups to deal with.
Pups cannot 'see' or deal with vibrating wood or anything else
except string vibration and the variances of those vibrations.

Only in the case of perfectly un-microphonic pickups are you right.


Here is the crux of
the biscuit though -

1. Pickups can only deal with energy loaded into the strings.
Pickups are magnetic and can only deal with the energy placed
into the metal strings above them or in some cases energy loaded
into metal (such as a bridge piece or inserted piece that is
metal placed into an acoustic type guitar etc) that vibrates as
a result of strings being plucked/strummed or otherwise loaded
with energy.

By loaded with energy you mean inertia, right? There is no energy
source beyond the pick or hammering on of strings. Everything else
from there on out is expending or dissipating that energy. Anything
absorbing that energy in a non-linear fashion affects the tone.


2. Electric/magnetic pickups CAN NOT "see" the vibrations from the
wood. Yes - when you strum a guitar the energy loaded into the
strings does transfer to the wood and other parts of the guitar
such as the nut bridge, etc.. BUT the pups cannot do anything
with this offloaded energy directly. They can only deal with the
energy of the string vibrations.

Not true. See above. I don't disagree that the majority the pickup
output comes from the strings, but not all. According to you, my
son's $170 Ibanez should sound just like a Les Paul, if I put the
same pickups on it. I doubt that.

Only indirectly (and this is
suspect) can the energy transfer from string to wood and other
guitar parts actually affect tone since the residual energy from
the initial loading of the strings to vibration of the wood can
in some cases actually come back and continue to vibrate down the
strings. The problem here is that the strings on a solid body
electric are actually fairly isolated from the wood itself. Only
a small percentage of energy loaded into the strings initially
(string vibration is the result of this) actually dissapates into
the wood.

Actually, that's one of reasons solid body guitars sustain more
than hollow body guitars.

When you place the headstock onto another piece of wood
or anything else that can also have a resonance point you are
effectively creating a diaphragm that acts much like a vibrating
speaker so you can hear the wood vibrate at certain tone
oscilations. The pickups cannot hear this since wood does not
create a magnetic field. Yes, other parts of the guitar can
affect string vibration - its duration or the opposite, the
damping of string vibration. A nut made of felt would
definitely put a damper on the strings, where as a nut made of
brass would definitely create a longer sustain of string
vibration since a lot less energy is being absorbed by the metal
brass nut (this leaving more energy in the strings to keep
vibrating.. actually oscillating) as opposed to a felt nut which
would absorb a lot of the string energy and dissipate it within the
felt.

3. People will strum or play an electric solid body unplugged and
here is where you can hear the residual energy of transfer to
the wood. You obviously hear the strings vibrating that is
giving you the bulk of what you hear when it is unplugged. But
you are also hearing the residual vibrations of the wood itself
(though subtle it's there) which adds to the tone. In a sense
the solid body is being heard like any other acoustic non-elec.
guitar. However it is false to assume that this has necessarily
anything to do with what the guitar will sound like plugged in.

Why is it false?

Once plugged in - all
that matters to the pickups is what the strings are doing. In
some very small matter the wood plays a part only if that
residual energy (wood vibration) can be channeled back into
making the strings vibrate further. The idea of a solid body is
that the residual energy from the wood is isolated from the
strings. So people that consider solid body electrics with
properties with that of an acoustic are misguided. An acoustic
guitar is designed so that both initial energy loaded into the
strings AND the wood
body and neck work together. You do not have electric pickups to
deal with.

4. The only way wood or body and neck material make on any solid
body when it is plugged in and what you will hear is
how it relates to adding or modifying string vibration since that
is all that matters to pickups. This is minimal at best and the
only way that wood matters is when you play your electric
unplugged when you can hear the residual (vibration) energy
loaded into the wood.

5. Finish coats on solid body electric guitars matter minimally to
the actual "tone" of an electric guitar. Finishes such as
polycoat or nitro lacquer would matter so minimally as to not be
an issue. A poly coat or a nitro coat is not going to impact
string vibration (actually soon after the strings vibrate over
magentic pickups a semi-spherical oscillation begins to occur -
not a simple back and forth vibration) and thus will not affect
'tone' to any measurable degree.

Not sure how this matters. The direction of the string vibration
has to do with whether or not the finish affects the tone?

However, different finishes will affect the
visual appeal of a guitar and might exhibit tonal differences
when the guitar is played acoustically.

Might?

However, once the guitar is
plugged in and the output becomes an electrical signal - the
finish coat differences on a guitar matter very little and most
would say it is extremely minimal in its affect on string
vibration and energy being read by the pickups.

Whew... this is such a simple thing.. I wonder why people think it
is some sort of voodoo or something or something artsy that only
those with blessed ears can discern.

No Voodoo, no mystery, and my ears certainly aren't blessed. It is
pretty simple, we agree there, but absolutes just don't work here.
Everything affects a guitar's tone even the size an weight of the
player.

An electric guitar is a
science project, an acoustic guitar is where the voodoo and
cratsman art is more involved since in an acoustic - the energy
that offloads from the initial input from the strings and then
into the wood and other parts of the guitar is all heard and
meaningful. This has nothing to do with the way an electric solid
body guitar works.

So you believe that electric guitars don't respond acoustically? I
suggest that the interaction between the guitar body and the
vibrating strings has everything to do with tone. Just giving
different guitars the same pickups won't make them sound identical
.... why is that?

Don


Thanks Don for the replies.

How about answering them.

No - I just do not believe that acoustic properties that can
be minimally exhibited by solid body electrics make up a large
portion of what creates sound from an electric solid body.
I am saying that the wood is way down (waaaaay down) on the list of
things
that affect sound and tone
even though it is a minor contributor in an indirect way.

None of the stuff I've mentioned is indirect, and with all due respect the
fact that you do not believe something doesn't make it untrue. I know what
you are saying, now how about some proof ....

But I just cannot agree about solid body guitars having 'tone wood'.
That's a sham to me.

And yet you quote people at Fender talking about tone wood in your defense.
Is it just that you don't like the expression? If wood does affect how a
guitar plays, how is that a sham?

Ah well - I might seem like a pain in the arse - but I do like
the replies and conversation whether we agree or disagree.
This stew of knowledge and confusion will hopefully serve up
some tasty stuff along the way. At least people are thinking about
it.

Hopefully you will learn some stuff as well. You seem pretty closed minded
right now. I asked some questions you didn't seem to want to answer. You
like to put forth your theories, but when it comes down to it, you don't
support anything you say. You just repeat it over and over in different
words. I begin to feel like the "baffle 'em with bullshit" mode is in play.
In any case, you're talking and not listening.

Don


.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: poly vs. nitro clear coat - age
    ... Yes - the wood (and general construction of the guitar and all ... or damping string vibration. ... The pups cannot 'hear' or see wood vibrations directly. ... after you strum or plucj the strings (energy transferance.. ...
    (alt.guitar)
  • Re: poly vs. nitro clear coat - age
    ... Yes - the wood (and general construction of the guitar and all its ... or damping string vibration. ... The pups cannot 'hear' or see wood vibrations directly. ... we're talking about the strings. ...
    (alt.guitar)
  • Re: poly vs. nitro clear coat - age
    ... Yes - the wood (and general construction of the guitar and all its ... or damping string vibration. ... The pups cannot 'hear' or see wood vibrations directly. ... we're talking about the strings. ...
    (alt.guitar)
  • Re: poly vs. nitro clear coat - age
    ... Yes - the wood (and general construction of the guitar and all ... or damping string vibration. ... The pups cannot 'hear' or see wood vibrations directly. ... after you strum or plucj the strings (energy transferance.. ...
    (alt.guitar)
  • Re: poly vs. nitro clear coat - age
    ... String energy, Solid Body Electric Guitars and pickups. ... Yes - the wood (and general construction of the guitar and all ... The pups cannot 'hear' or see wood vibrations directly. ... after you strum or plucj the strings (energy transferance.. ...
    (alt.guitar)