Re: poly vs. nitro clear coat - age

Squier why didnt you tell the stupid *** that the *** he reads about
guitar finishes is coming from people who want other peoples money? A nitro
finish is no harder to apply than a poly. It just takes longer between
coats. Guitar builders charge up the ass for it though and the only way they
can do this is to spread BS to stupid gullible pieces of *** like Guncho .

"Squier" <squier@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:260320071825271529%squier@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
In article <1174946332.239482.122630@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, Guncho
<cgunter@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Mar 26, 6:41 pm, Squier <squ...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
In article <130ftsmeehj3...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, Jim
<a...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Guncho wrote:
The finish on a solid body guitar has no affect on the tone what
so ever.

This is incorrect so any newbies please disregard it. Keith is
wrong.

I challenge ANYBODY to tell the difference in tone between two solid
body guitars, one with nitro, one with poly. Violins, acoustic
guitars,
etc. are different. And I own a vintage nitro finished Strat. There
are just too many other variables that make the finish on a SOLID
body
guitar much less of a factor. That's my opinion.

On an acoustic I'd say that the poly is superior because its
thinner.

I'm pretty sure that's totally incorrect as well.

Depends. I'm pretty sure that my Ibanez Artwood is poly, and it is
very
thin, thin enough that you can feel the grain in the solid Engelmann
spruce top.

Chris

Ok - here's my take on this - enough of the voodoo -

String energy, Solid Body Electric Guitars and pickups.

Yes - the wood (and general construction of the guitar and all its
parts)
does matter but ONLY as it relates to either facillitating
or damping string vibration. The construction of the guitar matters
but only as it relates to the enhancement or detriment of string
vibration.
Once you plug in a solid body elec. the pups can only deal with string
vibration and then send it down the line as elec. signal.
The pups cannot 'hear' or see wood vibrations directly.

ok... continue on reading if u dare

What you are hearing when you place the headstock against another
piece of resonant wood is the residual energy being dissapated and
transfered from one piece of wood to the next. You are creating a
diaphragm... nothing to do with sustain - more with the ability to
increase the volume of the the resonant energy that is loaded into
the wood of a solid body after you strum or plucj the strings
(energy transferance.. hand - strings - wood and other parts of
guitar).
however the pickups can only 'see' the energy of the metal strings
which form an electro-magnetic feast for the pups to deal with.
Pups cannot 'see' or deal with vibrating wood or anything else
except string vibration and the variances of those vibrations.

Here is the crux of
the biscuit though -

1. Pickups can only deal with energy loaded into the strings.
Pickups are magnetic and can only deal with the energy placed
into the metal strings above them or in some cases energy loaded
into metal (such as a bridge piece or inserted piece that is metal
placed into an acoustic type guitar etc) that vibrates as a result
of
strings being plucked/strummed or otherwise loaded with energy.

2. Electric/magnetic pickups CAN NOT "see" the vibrations from the
wood.
Yes - when you strum a guitar the energy loaded into the strings
does
transfer to the wood and other parts of the guitar such as the nut
bridge, etc.. BUT the pups cannot do anything with this offloaded
energy
directly. They can only deal with the energy of the string
vibrations.
Only indirectly (and this is suspect) can the energy transfer from
string to wood and other guitar parts actually affect tone since
the residual
energy from the initial loading of the strings to vibration of the
wood can in
some cases actually come back and continue to vibrate down the
strings.
The problem here is that the strings on a solid body electric are
actually fairly isolated from the wood itself. Only a small
percentage
of energy loaded into the strings initially (string vibration is
the
result of this) actually dissapates into the wood. When you place
the headstock onto another piece of wood or anything else that can
also have a resonance point you are effectively creating a
diaphragm
that acts much like a vibrating speaker so you can hear the wood
vibrate at certain tone oscilations. The pickups cannot hear this
since wood does not create a magnetic field. Yes, other parts of
the guitar can affect string vibration - its duration or the
opposite,
the damping of string vibration. A nut made of felt would
definitely
put a damper on the strings, where as a nut made of brass would
definitely
create a longer sustain of string vibration since a lot less energy
is
being absorbed by the metal brass nut (this leaving more energy in
the
strings to keep vibrating.. actually oscillating) as opposed to a
felt nut which
would absorb a lot of the string energy and dissipate it within the
felt.

3. People will strum or play an electric solid body unplugged and here
is where you can hear the residual energy of transfer to the wood.
You obviously hear the strings vibrating that is giving you the
bulk of what you hear when it is unplugged. But you are also
hearing
the residual vibrations of the wood itself (though subtle it's
there)
which adds to the tone. In a sense the solid body is being heard
like
any other acoustic non-elec. guitar. However it is false to assume
that this has necessarily anything to do with what the guitar will
sound like
plugged in. Once plugged in - all that matters to the pickups is
what the strings are doing. In some very small matter the wood
plays
a part only if that residual energy (wood vibration) can be
channeled
back into making the strings vibrate further. The idea of a solid
body is that the residual energy from the wood is isolated from the
strings. So people that consider solid body electrics with
properties
with that of an acoustic are misguided. An acoustic guitar is
designed
so that both initial energy loaded into the strings AND the wood
body
and neck work together. You do not have electric pickups to deal
with.

4. The only way wood or body and neck material make on any solid body
when
it is plugged in and what you will hear is
how it relates to adding or modifying string vibration since that
is
all that matters to pickups. This is minimal at best and the only
way that wood matters is when you play your electric unplugged when
you can hear the residual (vibration) energy loaded into the wood.

5. Finish coats on solid body electric guitars matter minimally to the
actual "tone" of an electric guitar. Finishes such as polycoat or
nitro lacquer would matter so minimally as to not be an issue.
A poly coat or a nitro coat is not going to impact string vibration
(actually soon after the strings vibrate over magentic pickups a
semi-spherical oscillation begins to occur - not a simple back and
forth vibration)
and thus will not affect 'tone' to any measurable degree. However,
different finishes will affect the visual appeal of a guitar and
might
exhibit tonal differences when the guitar is played acoustically.
However, once the guitar is plugged in and the output becomes an
electrical signal - the finish coat differences on a guitar matter
very little and most would say it is extremely minimal in its
affect
on string vibration and energy being read by the pickups.

Whew... this is such a simple thing.. I wonder why people think it
is some sort of voodoo or something or something artsy that only
those with blessed ears can discern. An electric guitar is a
science project,
an acoustic guitar is where the voodoo and cratsman art is more
involved since
in an acoustic - the energy that offloads from the initial input
from
the strings and then into the wood and other parts of the guitar is
all heard and meaningful. This has nothing to do with the way
an electric solid body guitar works.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

People are nuts around here. You are disagreeing with things that are
considered to be fact amongst professional guitar makers.

Why don't you all just sell your guitars and slap some pickups on a
2X4.

Chris



They used to say the world was flat. This was an acceptable and
undisputable fact by many learned people of that time.

The problem is this Chris -
People are judging what is best for an acoustic guitar and then
transferring that to what an electric guitar is about.
They are not the same. They look the same but they do
not operate on the same principles. Because there is nothing
electric about an acoustic - all the parts of the design can
distill down into tone - noticeable differences - you are not
only hearing strings but wood vibrations and timbres.. etc.
In a solid body electric (as I have outlined below) many things
that would be important to the tone of an acoustic guitar simply
have no meaning (or minimal effect) on a solid body electric guitar.

I really do not care what 'pro guitar' makers say.
And are you sure you are getting your facts from those that
build elec. solid bodies -- or are you getting your info from
makers that are stating experience from the making of acoustics and
classicals ?

Once again - you cannot assume that all that is important
for acoustics is the same for electrics.

It is like saying what is important for a car is necessarily
important for a truck. Sure - they kinda look the same -
they have wheels, engine, brakes, transmissions, etc.. but
just because they are very similar - both are actually very different
when it comes to form and function.

same with acoustics and electric. solid bodies.


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