Re: question about teaching and learning guitar


----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike C." <Funkifized@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Newsgroups: alt.guitar.beginner
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 7:00 PM
Subject: Re: question about teaching and learning guitar


> "Roger E. Blumberg" <rblumbergSANS@xxxxxxx> wrote in message
> news:hjPFe.9298$dU3.2918@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >
> > "Mike C." <Funkifized@xxxxxxx> wrote in message
> > news:1122467538.372301.162770@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >
> >
> > > Reading is fundamental to making music
> >
> >
> > *Horse Apples* -- plain and simple, _rubbish_.
>
> Okay, why?


if you have to ask, there's no hope for you.



> > > Reading music allows us to
> > > communicate with other musicians,
> >
> >
> > and Wonder Bread builds strong bodies 12 different ways.
>
> This makes a load of sense. Your point here?


white bread


>
> > Some elementary theory knowledge _will_ help, but you don't need to read
> > music (even) to learn enough theory to communicate adequately (in a
> > technical manner) with other musicians.
>
> No, you don't. I never said that you needed to. However, it's the most
> universal way to communicate.


Is it? 95% of guitarists, bassists, drummers, singers, don't read music
Mike. Somehow they manage to communicate with each other. And _that_, in a
nutshell, is the fly in your ointment my dear.


> If you want a sax player to play a piece of
> music, it's a helluva lot easier to write the notes on a piece of paper
than
> it is to give him a recording of it and wait for him to figure it out and
> memorize it (because reading is apparently not aloud).
>
> >
> > > and gives us a good way of organizing
> > > our music thoughts, whether in our heads or on paper.
> >
> >
> > as do a many other notational and recording devices, methods, schemes,
> tools
>
> And which one of those allows us to express those ideas to other musicians
> most efficiently. You also miss the point about organizing our musical
> thoughts. It's much easier to understand the concept of harmony, scales,
and
> indeed sound when we know how to write it, even if we don't actually write
> it down. I know it's helped me. It's no different than the analogy of
> speaking and learning to read/write the written word. People who are
> illiterate are far more likely to have a lesser vocabulary than those who
> read. In the same vein, it's true that they *can* develop a quite
extensive
> vocabulary, but they will spend far more energy figuring it out if they
> can't read the written word. Ain't a non-reader in the world that's going
to
> be able to even consider doing a pit orchestra gig like I did last year,
and
> I'm not even *that* good a reader.


and I'm guessing they can live with that.


> > > I get the
> > > occasional student that has no interest in reading music, and without
> > > fail, he/she falls behind the other students,
> >
> >
> > the implied cause and effect equation is misleading, erroneous
> >
> >
> > > no matter how hard I try
> > > to keep him/her up to date.
> >
> >
> > they need a new teacher, or to teach themselves (as most people do in
> fact).
> > You've already made it clear what _your_ priorities are Mike, and you've
> > also made clear your contempt for people who do not read. So I have to
> > question just how "hard" you really do try under such circumstances.
>
> Well, one particular student that I'm referring to disagrees with you.
I've
> been teaching him for about a year, and he's learning. He's not learning
at
> the pace of those who have worked on reading, but he's still learning.
He's
> spending a lot of extra energy relearning stuff, but if that's what he
wants
> to do, that's his gig. Nice kid, I do a lot of work getting him material
to
> work on from home, writing down stuff and tabbing it out, because I know
> he's not going to read the notation. I have explained and gotten some
> response to him at least checking out the rhythms from the notation along
> with the tab, in order to have a better idea how the line/solo goes, but
> it's still more work than he should need to do. Having done the amount of
> work he has done, I was getting paying jazz gigs, not trying to figure out
> rock solos.


ok, I take it back, maybe I was wrong, I'm sorry. Maybe you do give it your
best. Nevertheless, I'll still never buy the cause and effect conclusions
you draw.


> > so very glad you're back Mike, recharged and full of bluster. I did
> notice,
> > by the way, that it took a whole of 24 hours from the moment you
returned
> > before you resumed your now famous mantra; on 6-10-05 you had to quickly
> pen
> > a separate rider note to remind everyone . . .
> > . . "I also want to add that there is *no* other single thing that will
> help
> > your playing more than learning to read music." . . .
>
> Damn right. Me and the rest of music academia. Tell me what other single
> thing will help your playing, besides a broad subject like "practicing".


again, if you have to ask . . . . .


> a single thing. Chords? Ear training? Scales? Seems to me that reading
music
> helps all of things immensely.
>
> > Have I mentioned *Horse Apples* lately?
>
> Yes. How eloquent of you.


thank you. I think it would sound even better in French though.


>
> > so do I get points for holding my tongue for 6 weeks ;')
>
> I'd be happy to hold it for you.


yuk !


>
> > on a positive and complementary note, Mike, I did notice you're putting
a
> > lot of effort into your posts, and I'm sure some people will benefit
from
> > them.
> >
> > This is simply one of those "fighting word" topics that we'll eternally
> > disagree on, and I can only listen to so much of it before I reach for
my
> > shovel, once again. I guess the main reason I'll speak up on occasion is
> > that if we "give you (and yours) your head" to often and for too long
(to
> > use a horse analogy again) people, new-comers, might actually start to
> > believe that you represent the norm, the majority, and the authoritative
> > last word on the subject(s) -- heaven forbid.
>
> I do represent the vast majority of music academia and scholarship.


I'm not sure that's something to be so proud of


> I am the
> norm in the music education world, if not a little lax. I'm not the last
> word on any subject. Let people research it for themselves. Let them write
a
> symphony or a jazz standard without learning to read music.
>
> > and just so we're clear, this is about the "mind-set", not you (in
> > particular) Mike. You came back knowing this would happen again, and so
it
> > has, and so the world turns, nothing's new, we all still keep
contributing
> > what we can, and co-existing as best we can.
>
> I came back because it looked like some people needed some guidance. No
> more, no less. If you plan on changing the mind-set of the entire academic
> world, feel free. Find me a music school that allows people to not read
> music. And believe it or not, I'm not stupid. This has nothing to do with
> the mind-set,


but it does. You, Mike, because you're so militant, singularly, do a
disservice to your own cause and camp. If any of the people you mention said
either of the two things you said, and said them repeatedly, and then said
them some more, I'd probably say the same thing to them. I never said that
reading music was a bad thing by the way, but it is _not_ fundamental to
music making, nor is it the single most important thing or way to improve
your playing. It's not even the 2rd, 3rd, 4th, or 5th most important thing,
for that matter. So now you have five meanings of life to ponder.


> as you would have long ago been spewing your drivel to Lumpy,
> Mark, Rick, etc. You know that I'm passionate about teaching and can be
> easily worked up. You're an intellectual bully,


please


> and I'll have no part in it.
> If you want to screw up people's musical development


hardly


> by falsely giving them
> the impression that I'm a bad teacher


I never said you're a bad teacher


> and that my methods are wrong, then I
> can't do much about that. Let it be on your conscience.


I've done nothing to feel guilty about


> You know what you're doing


yes, I do


> and so do I.


no, you don't, and you probably never will


>If you can live with that


I can


> keep enjoying yourself


I don't enjoy having to do this


> I'm sure you're a much liked person in real life.


I am in fact -- [well, I do have a problem with idiots, and I usually tell
them so to their face, and _they_ might not like me very much because of
that, but otherwise, yes, most people like me in real life. And I'm not
calling you an idiot Mike, I'm just thinking out loud, meaning to say, I'm
not universally loved, but I do alright, no complaints in the "do people
like me" department.]


Thank you
Roger




.

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