Re: The Last Word

"coreybenson" <coreybenson@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in
news:gk5grs$2t1$1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx:

"The BorgMan" <me@xxxxxx> wrote in message
news:Xns9B8D759CCACD082574@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Zoom B2. $89. 120dB SNR, -100dB noise floor.

LOL - ok, answer honestly now: Have you TRIED the unit? That's a
complete load of BS! You're the EE. Pick one up, measure it, and
let us know.

I own and use one.

With all the effects turned off - just a basic in out, through the
converters and minimum amplification stages - I believe the numbers
are reasonable.

I haven't measured it - but in its most basic "preamp" state, it's
amazingly clean for a <$100 piece of equipment.

Test it. Tell us how close to published spec's it really is. I
politely suggest you'll find the numbers suggested are marketing
nonsense. You're caveating your statement quite a bit.

Nah - I'm willing to bet the numbers are pretty reasonable under their test
conditions - which of course involve a reference signal level chosen to
best showoff their specs.

What I do know is that in a normal live situation the number being 120dB or
80dB isn't going to make any difference. Heck, even at 60dB the odds of
that noise being above the noise floor isn't great.

Why USE one, if
you have everything turned off?

It's still a preamp. Why run the front end preamp on your bass amp with all
the tone controls bypass? Because it's still boosting the signal from
pickup levels to amplifier digestable levels.


Look at what I do - I design precision measurement electronics that
involve capturing minute electrical signals (much smaller than
signals from a pickup by orders of magnitude) from a transducer - by
amplifying them, filtering them, and digitizing them.

I understand where you're coming from. I've spent years working very
closely with engineering types like you, Aaron. THEORETICALLY, your
position makes sense. PRACTICALLY, it's just math, smoke and mirrors.

Note - we design, then SELL the physically built incarnation of these
circuits. Practically - these are working machines, sitting on shop floors
and metrology labs across the country, measuring exactly what they are
intended to measure. Nothing theoretical about it.

I notice you've consistently ignored the Best Practices comment I've
asked you about as well... which is very telling, in my book.

Best practices are usually dumbed down, normal case, best practices - what
is the simplest and most likely practice to result in positive outcomes.
They don't apply to every situation, and generally pay little attention to
tolerance.

The problem I have with your stance is this: Sure, you CAN turn down
the bass and PROBABLY not have a noticable problem, but why would you
BOTHER, when leaving it up is just as functional, especially if you're
talking about 1/2dB changes, which even YOU admit are better handled
by playing softer or digging in just a bit?

Playing softer lowers your SNR. Noise coming from the pickups is attenuated
equal to the signal when you turn down your volume knob. When you play
softer you're reducing the signal but maintaining the same noise levels.

SNR would be maximized by always playing as loudly as possible below the
point of saturating the pickup coil/magnet structure, then attenuating the
signal wherever in the circuit the cleanest attenuation exists (which is
probably nowhere - because the pots in most amps/preamps aren't any better
than the ones in your bass)... but if you're feeding a amp with tapped Alps
step pots, with .1% resistors used for the steps - turn it down there.

I think you, like Mike, just like to type to see yourself in print.

The preamp that has 60dB SNR at unity gain, is probably more like
45dB at max gain.

WHICH PREAMP? Or are you making up numbers again?

I nominate the front end of a mid to late 1960's Fender Bassman.

So, where do you have the specs of your measurements posted so we can
see them? Oh, you didn't measure anything. You just made up some more
numbers. Got it. Thank you for the clarification.

Published numbers for the tube Bassmans are in the 60-70dB range.

Please name 5 bass guitarists currently using a 1960's Fender Bassman
for gigging.

I'm not sure I know 5 people using them for bass (could probably name a
couple hundred using them for guitar) - but I do know one guy who plays a
Hofner v63 through Bassman 135 with a 4x10 cab.

By the way, I've owned two of them. I've gigged with
them. I have experience using them AS BASS AMPS. Do you?

I've used one a couple times - not my tone at all. Flabby, underpowered,
and a bit noisy - like most low power amps.


That preamp that has 120dB SNR at unity - probably 110dB at max
gain.

WHICH PREAMP? Or are you making up numbers again?

My Zoom. Lots of other 24bit digital units.

LOL - You haven't bothered to measure anything. I bet you're a spec's
reader, who believes what's printed without testing. I'm concerned
about the quality of your designs, Aaron. Do you test components
before designing them into a new unit? I bet you do... so, how often
do you find parts that looked GREAT on paper, but failed to meet their
own published spec's? Since you seem to be working at the upper end, I
bet you find it more often than you'd like... so, you buy BETTER
components.

Actually I find it vanishingly often - and I'm guard band freak... but then
I understnad that all specs need to be considered with their testing
conditions in mind.

Have I measured the Zoom - not yet, but I might if I get some free time.
What I can tell you is that the noise figures in a circuit of that type
will be dominated by the abilities of the converter, and the ability to
keep digital noise out of the analog sections. With a 96KHz sample rate at
24bits.

With a 24bit converter you have a theoretical dynamic range of ~144dB, and
an SNR that approaches that.


From a likely inconsequential SNR perspective - none. You will get
vanishingly better SNR with a passive bass dimed than at a lower
volume.

Whether that benefit outweighs the possible costs in convenience are
up to the user.

THERE ARE NO "COSTS," Aaron! Oh, except on your crappy bar stage, with
a drummer who has a HORRIBLE setup, and rudely parks his cymbal stands
in front of your amp... but, wait! You already said you WOULDN'T turn
around and tweak a dial. You'd play 1/2dB louder, or softer, instead.

I wouldn't - others might. I wouldn't adjust my amp volume OR my bass
volume.


Ypsilanti, MI.

Dude, you're 20 minutes outside of Detroit, tops. LOL - Whatever. Now
I'm starting to suspect everything you say. I don't believe you can't
find decent stages, or are forced to setup in the poor manner you
suggest. You really like to concern yourself with the extremes in the
world, don't you?

More like 30 minutes out of Detroit - and we really dodn't play anywhere IN
Detroit. Mostly Ypsilanti, Ann Arbor, Whitmore Lake, Brighton, etc. - and
there are quite a number of places around here with TINY stages (Zukey Lake
Tavern, Tap Room Annex, etc)


Of course - we've got to put the mixer, poweramps, and speakers on
that small stage also... plus instrument stands, mic stands, and
possibly monitors.

Oh, whatever. Dude, I've been gigging professionally for over 25
years. NEVER have I had to do the gymnastics you claim, and I've
played some TINY clubs. I think you like to make up extremes to try to
prove your point. I'm from Duluth, MN... much further from a major
metropolitan area than you are.

The average bar band gig around here is:

$300-$400
4x45 minutes
On a SMALL stage, where you often get hassle from the owner if you exceed
it.


...and get in the way of the dinner tables? Or in a prime drinking
area?

If you don't have the cajones to stand up to the bar owner and say
"Listen, we need THIS MUCH SPACE, or this won't work!" then you don't
deserve to be playing gigs anyway. Wait, I bet that's WHY you're
playing the gigs you are... the other reasonable musicians aren't
bothering to try to get booked at ill-run 'clubs' like that.

No, lots of other musicians ARE playing these exact same places. Sure, we
could raise a stink... then not play there any more.


I'm not talking about bands that make
"thousands of dallars" - I'm talking about 3, 4 and 5 piece cover
bands playing covers, like Skynyrd, etc. You're talking about a
club that shouldn't have bands period.

Which is most clubs around here.

How a regular bar becomes a music bar around here:

1) Move (not remove, just move) 4-5 tables out of the way.

Yep. Move the Pool table, or a couple of tables, etc. The Uptown Bar
here in Minneapolis has tables on its stage when no one's playing,
because they have great food. They need the space 90% of the time
their open. This isn't a big deal, if you have a slight understanding
of business, Aaron. Do you?

Yes - but it's just an example of why most clubs shouldn't have music. They
aren't really prepared for it.

2) Install stage with no regard at all to size, shape

Yes, this happens. Usually, after a time, the club figures out what
they need, because enough bands say "Hey, man... thanks for the stage,
but... if we're going to play here, we're putting the guitarist,
bassist and lead singer on the floor in FRONT of the stage, because
it's not big enough." Eventually, the bar figures out what's up, or
the decent bands stop playing there.

Decent cover bands in my area pretty much only play corporate/casino type
gis in my area then...


3) Do absolutely nothing, at all, ever that might improve accoustics

Why should they? Most bar owners/patrons have no idea what a good room
sounds like, unless they regularly make the rounds and are of the
mindset of improving quality. Remember: Bands are hired for ONE THING:
Sell More Liquor (or food). Not exactly rocket scientists running most
clubs... if what they're doing is working, why "fix" what doesn't seem
to be broken?

It's up to us as musicians to deal with this fact, and make sure our
gear can handle anything we might have to.

Which is what we do - so that occasionally means climbing over a ride stand
to get to my amp, or setting up on a stage so small I have to stand behind
the guitar player, or having to play quietly enough that the people at the
dinner table 6' from the front of the stage can have a conversation with
the bar owner.


I'm not saying I always (or even regularky) have to do it - but my
(now ex) drummer set up in such a way that on small stages his ride
stand ended up basically in front of my amp. It happens.

Glad he's gone. Sounds like a dink to play with. One question: Why are
you setting up on that side of the stage? I've always found it easier
to stay locked with a drummer if I was on the high-hat side of the
kit.

I do set up on the hi-hat side. My ex-drummer put his ride right over top/a
little left of his hi-hats. In other words his ride was the most
leftward/rearward positioned cymbal.

Heck - the guy set up the rest of his kit right handed (right foot kick,
left foot hats, snare on the left) but played the hats/ride with his left
hand and the snare with his right.


We play on stages ranging anywhere from about 12'x12' down to one I
bet was no bigger than about 6'x6', and the manager didn't even want
a cable hanging off the stage.

Laugh politely in that owner's face and say "Can you SEE the gear
we're bringing in? Here's a dose of reality, fella!" (in a more polite
way, of course! LOL)

Well, you try to reason with them - but they aren't always the most
reasonable.


All active basses boost volume - the question is: Is the volume knob
changing the gain of one of the gain stages to effect volume changes,
or is the volume knob just an adjustable level pad between
stages/after the final stage.

I disagree. They all boost volume if they have active EQ and you
utilize it, but we were talking about volume. Here's two examples I've
owned:

No, they boost volume either way.

Most basses work as follows:

pickups -> gain stage(fixed gain) -> eq stage -> makeup/reduction gain
stage (fixed gain) -> Volume control (variable attenuation)

Some work as follows:

pickups -> gain stage (foxed gain) -> eq stage -> makeup/reduction gain
stage (gain controlled by volume knob)

They all boost signal from your pickups. Some vary the amount of boost,
some boost a fixed rate then attenuate the post boost signal.


1. Warwick Thumb Bolt On. With volume dimed, it was at unity.

So with the volume dimed you got passive pickup signal levels out of it?


2. Washburn XB400. Center detent on volume control told you when it
was at unity. Boosted it was a hissy fricking monster.

Again: I am not arguing that diming an active bass with a boost volume
is good. We are in agreement about the volume being kept at unity, so
don't continue to argue with me about this point, ok?

No - GAIN kept as close as possible to unity. Not necessarily volume. On a
passive bass, they're generally the same thing. On an active - it'll vary
greatly depending on cicuit topology.

There are some things we're glossing over that probably have a place in the
discussion also - like the effects of loading on the pickups. How long (and
capacitive) of cable are those pickups trying to drive? What is the amp
input impedance?

--
Aaron

.

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