Re: Joe The Pianist?


"Les Cargill" <lcargill@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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Mike Rieves wrote:
"Les Cargill" <lcargill@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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Mike Rieves wrote:
"Jim Carr" <newsgroups@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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Mike Rieves wrote:

Seriously, how is it fair that a corporate executive who is
mismanaging a company gets that huge compensation package when the
folks that actually do the work are losing their jobs? The head of
Ford motor company made over 28 million while 51,000 workers were
laid off, is that fair. There just needs to be a common sense
application of fairness, and that ain't happening.
Fair implies that there's something in control that can actually make
things equitable *and* that you can define the problem in a closed
system.

In this case millions of people by law had a fair shot at the CEO job.
Beyond that there's not much anybody can do to make things "fair" so
get over it.
There's a lot that can be done, bankrupting a publicly held corporation
for one's own enrichment is a crime.
That's two things. One, the bankruptcy. Two, the guy getting paid.

No, it's two parts of the defrauding of the stockholders and the folks
who work for the corporation, and to a certain extent, the public.


You're oversimplifying this. For one, auto companies discovered the joys
of media early, and companies that do that think they own their
own destinies. For another, the car bidness has been uneasy for a very
long time.

FWIW, when the Model T sank, Ford almost died then. It's been a near
thing ever since.

Fraud has specific and legal meanings. It requires an action be taken.
It is not reasonable to couple the compensation of a CEO with the
factors you're talking about. How it's not reasonable has
to do with if nothing else, the sorts of data collection
that would be required to be done before any contract could be negotiated.

You seem to imply that the parties in place cannot make this
contract. I don't see it; presumably the contract is upheld as legal,
so you have to explain exactly why the contract creates a
public nuisance... or whatever.

If anything, Ford's been trying to bankrupt itself for a long time.

True, and the folks guiding it have been making millions doing it, do
you think that's okay?


I don't have any particular problem with it, no.

I'm pretty sure that there's been enough meddling in the car business
since Nader's first book that it's surprising there's anything
there at all.

What many of these corporate executives are doing is both unethical and
criminal, it just happens to be hard to prove,
It's hard to prove because it's not true, unless you make "losing
money" a crime ( which people have damn near done ).

Intentionally losing other people's money to gain your own enrichment is
a crime, it's called fraud, among other things, and some executives have
been prosecuted for it.


"Intentionally"???? W. T. F. Now there's something completely
unproveable. Not even the most rabid Enron hater can prove any
such thing.

I know a guy who was a VP with Enron - he was acquired. He tells
a much different story than the one you get in the media, any
media. There was no intent but to make money. He had no visibility
into the trading op, or into the top circles, but *his* view was
that it was an excellent company that got things done.

I watched almost all the CSPAN when this was going on. Whatsisname
sunk liabilities illegally using SPEs and that's all that
was ultimately wrong. One bad actor, in essence.

No, I would not want to drink beers with these guys, but
that's *not criminal*.

>> so prosecutions are rare. It's hard to differentiate between criminal
intent
and stupidity, and these guys will loudly and proudly proclaim
stupidity while they walk away with millions.

No, they say "it was on fire when I lay down on it." Seriously, rent
"The Hudsucker Proxy" again...

As for the rest of it, well, that's just whining. The issue is not
this split-second snapshot of one CEO versus 51,000 workers. I mean,
how is it "fair" that auto workers were paid such high wages for work
that probably millions of people would do a for a lot less money?
And I'll bet you voted for Dubya... both times.

WTF difference.... ?

Obviously, a lot of people who voted for Dubya the first time were duped,
but anyone who voted for him the second time should be declared too
stupid to be allowed to vote.


No, people who voted for Dubya rightfully realized that the gosh darned
Democrats couldn't find anybody who could beat even Dubya. And it's
probably a very good thing they did vote for him. Go see all - ALL -
of the Frontlines on the subject. See you in a month. No sneering
here; it's just a lot of stuff.

Again, you're trying to kindergartenize a very complex thing. Noble
idea, but too much data gets lost. I saw Al Gore more or less admit
in a Charlie Rose interview that he was glad he hadn't been elected,
and *THAT SHOWED* in how he campaigned. Kerry? Not remotely
ready. Obama is an order of magnitude more prepared than either of them.

I am sorry, but the main thing these people do for us is
very paranoid and self-defensive. Dubya done good. This has
been a rough decade. If he'd picked somebody besides CHeney,
we'd be in pretty good shape. Condoleeza Rice has done great
things for her country, under difficult circumstances.

Life ain't fair. Get over it. Even my two-year-old gets that.
I'll bet you made sure that he gets that.

My Dad, a lifelong Yella Dawg democrat, made sure I did.

America is going bankrupt,
Pfffft. It's a cold, not cancer. Turn off the TV.

If so, the cold is developing into pneumonia, and unless it's treated
properly and soon, the effects could last for more than a generation.


In order to get to a real 1930s Depression, we'd have to lose so much
economic muscle that ... I simply don't know how we could get there.

There will be pain. It will be real. But you are, apparently
thinking that the bailouts are like a credit card. No, they
are not. None of that money actually exists. It is putting an
IV in the arm of a few companies' balance sheets to try to keep
bad things from happening.

As soon as people get bored with it, it'll stop affecting
behavior.

even you will soon be feeling the effects. If something isn't done
quickly, we're about to head into a depression that will make the Great
Depression of the '30s look like a mild recession. Let's see who'll be
whining then.
We probably won't be whining here, then. Nobody knows where the bottom
is, but judging from past recessions, it's hard to accept that it'll be
much worse than '82. Just seems unlikely.


We're already 'way beyond '82,

Not by any conceivable measure. Not even close.

the symptoms are just developing a bit slower. '82 was a mild case of
economic flatulence, this is the fart right before the diarrhea starts
totally draining the system.




The total downside risk not covered *so far* by bailouts is a few
hundred billion. Not chump change, but not fatal, either.


One thing is certain, there's no use debating this. Y'all want to make it
all complicated and twisted, but the reality is simple, as long as greedy,
short sighted corporate executives are willing to mismanage and even
dismantle and bankrupt companies for the benefit of themselves and their
cronies, and as long as they're allowed to get away with it, this country is
in major trouble. Are there other issues? Sure there are, but until this is
fixed, they won't get fixed.
There's no point in going further, in a few months, if the economy is
getting back on track, I'll gladly admit I was wrong, if it is continuing to
get worse, I'll say, "I told you so.", but I won't be happy about it. In
fact, I sincerely hope I'm wrong, but I'm afraid I'm dead right.


.

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