Re: Sound Installation Advice


"coreybenson" <coreybenson@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:1195074943.430849.96850@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
On Nov 14, 2:06 pm, "Mike Rieves" <mr...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
No! That one guy said that some annonymous tech support person at JBL
admitted that there was a problem, all you have is the guy's patently
hearsay word in it. Even if what he said were true, there are plenty of
other powered speakers in the same price range that would do the job. You
asked for specifics and I gave you something off-the-cuff, and I told you
up
front that it was an off-the-cuff suggestion. If someone wants to pay me
for
the work, I'll be glad to do the research and come up with a complete
design.

From your posting here, I wouldn't suggest or allow anyone I know to
pay you for your services.

Look, you started the attack on my work, all I did was reply in kind.
The
truth is that you have no clue as to the quality of my work, so if you
don't
want your abilities insulted, don't insult mine. You disagree with me,
fine!
Just try to do it civilly and without implying that I don't know what I'm
talking about.

Ok, I'll be very clear, since you're suggesting I was merely implying:

You're full of ***, and don't know what you're talking about, Mike.
You are able to do minimal research and make yourself SOUND like you
do, to anyone who hasn't actually worked in the business, but I see
through you. So does everyone else on this group, as far as I can
tell. I have no reason to be civil with you, Mike. You're spreading
bad info, and it needs to be pointed out.

If you don't know that FOH type systems can give great sound under a
wide variety of conditions, then you're the one who is full of ***!

Yeah, and if you actually knew me, you'd quickly realize that your low
opinion of me is unwarranted.

I sincerely doubt it. You're not the type I'd LIKE to get to know,
frankly. Sorry if that hurts your feelings! It's usenet... get over it
already.

I could give a *** what you think, it's becoming painfully obvious that you
don't know enough to matter.

Nope, not true, especially nowadays, and especially in a small room
like
Brian is talking about. Unless the room were "L" shaped or something like
that, a well designed FOH type system can provide very good coverage,
with
great quality sound throughout the room. The advantages are more
versatility
and more headroom, at about the same price.

Mike, this is where you're wrong. "Nowadays" companies are putting out
pretty much the same stuff they've been putting out for years.
Frankly, there have been very few "innovations" in sound reinforcement
over the past two decades. There've been marginal manufacturing
improvements, and a step away from the highly-efficient-but-extremely-
peaky cabs of years gone by, and much more focus on deep bass as
opposed to loud but NOT deep bass, but other than that, you still have
the inherent problems of trying to get a horn to crossover and work
properly with a 15" driver (as in the cabs you suggested). Basically,
where that cab performs the worst, Brian needs it to perform the best.
EH! Wrong answer from your cursory search. I didn't even DO a search -
I stumbled on that thread before you even made your suggestion, and
I've worked with a number of powered FOH cabs that have EXACTLY the
built-in-problem the poster in that thread had. In fact, I've used
them IN A JAZZ CLUB! And had EXACTLY the issue he had, but with a
different brand.

Sure you have.... everyone knows all self-powered SR speakers have noise
gates built in.

I don't need references from you, I believe you, I just insulted you
because you insulted me.

Get over it, little boy.

This little boy has no need to get over anything. You, however, need to grow
up.

And I'm not sure that you've done anything but be a poser on Usenet.

Ah, but I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is, young man! You
aren't. You want references? Make a quick phone call. I'll answer, and
I'll hand you the info.

I quote from your site, "Years go by, and the boy, now older and yet somehow
no wiser, stumbles through impromptu jam sessions he's ill-equipped to join,
learns songs beyond his abilities, and generally makes a loud nuisance of
himself to anyone who'll let him." Sounds like the truth to me, it's obvious
that you haven't matured much. I saw nothing about sound system design or
your pewrsonal site or on Google. You are an IT professional and own a
recording studio on the side, I'm afraid that doesn't qualify you as
aprofessional sound systems designer.

You won't call... because you like the idea that I might be as big a
poser as you are, Mike.

I have no need to pose. However, it seems that you need to put down others
in order to make yourself look good. Why else would you go on this rant
merely because I suggested an alternative?

However, unlike you, I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.

For the record, again: I have no doubts about your skills and
abilities.

Let me repeat one more time, if Brian had said that the system would only
be
used for background music, I wouldn't have suggested a FOH type system,
but
because he said that there was the possibility of live acxoustic
performances and even bands down the road, I suggested a more versitle
desing that would accomodate any potential use the club owner might have
for
the system. I think mine was a practical suggestion, and nothing posted
since would make me think otherwise. Brian is free to do whatever he and
the
club owner decide, I just wanted him to keep in mind the advantages
either
way. You had the distributed system advantages covered, so I chose to
point
out the advantages of an FOH type system. There was no need for you to
take
it personal and start insulting me.

I didn't take it personal. You were wrong (are still wrong) and it's
irritating watching you continue to prop up your foolish argument.

I'm not arguing, you are, I'm just saying what I said all along, before
Brian starts designing a system, it would be beneficial to take a look at
the alternatives. Why does that get your bowels in an uproar?

A FOH system in the room he's described will be exactly that, Mike: A
FRONT OF HOUSE SYSTEM... loud at the front, where BY THEIR PHYSICAL
NATURE ALONE the sound will be peaky and inconsistent. By crossing
over between a 15" driver and a 1" driver, you WILL have issues,
specifically in the vocal area. Even an 8" driver to a 1" driver will
have problems in this area... Is it workable, if you're willing to
sacrifice high quality sound? Sure... If your goal is efficiency, not
clarity.

In a small room like the one Brian is talking about, efficiency is much
of an issue. And 52 Hz to 17 KHz plus or minus 3 dB isn't all that peaky, in
fact it's better than a lot of studio monitor speakers. The fact that the
crossover is electronic and before the amplifiers eliminates the crossover
phasing issues one would find in a conventional speaker. If you don't know
enough about speaker placement to eliminate the "loud in front" issue, then
you've no business designing SR systems.

I've mixed on just about every type of system you can name or
describe, Mike. I spend between 20-50 hours per week in my studio,
plus do at least 2-4 FOH gigs per month, RIGHT NOW, with current,
state-of-the-industry gear.

Fine, then you should know the advantages of FOH over distributed when
doing
anything which reqires someone to mix, as in live acoustic acts or bands.

No one's going to mix on the system Brian's suggesting putting in,
Mike, and you haven't addressed the rest of the points I made. You're
slipping! Better check your meds... maybe you missed a dose?

I GET what Brian is trying to do. You don't. Period. End of story...
stop your yapping. I also agree that the typical FOH-style system
you're suggesting will NOT provide what the owner wants, and what
Brian would like to see installed.

Where did I ever say that I was talking about "typical" FOH systems? I
was
talking about a specialized custom system designed and set up for doing
everything the owner might want or need, now and in the future.

Jesus, Mike... you suggested a musician-grade 'typical' PA speaker as
your one and only ACTUAL suggestion! It's about as 'typical' as one
could fricking get! Can't you see that? Good lord, man! Read your own
post, for crying out loud!

The JBL's aren't typical, they're great sounding speakers which will do
very well at any level within their range.

You make one good point (late in the game, as usual) about using the
system for JUST vocals... but, since I've actually USED a system in
the manner Brian's suggesting, I'd say it probably won't matter,
Mike.

And I say it probably would matter. Don't get me wrong, it's possible
to
design a distributed system that will work with live acoustic music where
everything is miked, and even with bands. However, you aren't going to do
it
within the owner's budget constraints.

You're wrong. It's been done, and it worked very well. Accept that,
move on.

The speakers I suggested may not be the right solution, but your one
and only suggestion isn't either.

I made general suggestions, as did you, my "one and only suggestion" as
you put it was an offhand suggestion for one possible speaker system to
use,
nowhere did I say it was the only system that would work.

As I did... a general suggestion, with an example of a piece of gear
I've used that I think would handle the job admirably. Your one and
only suggestion would NOT handle the job as put forth by Brian. Thank
you for playing!

Mike, it's not a frigging sports bar. 8-10 of the boxes I suggested
will be louder than they'll ever need... but there are other boxes out
there. If they're not enough, it'll be pretty obivious fairly
quickly... and they can use something else.

Yeah they can use something else, and thay'll have to pay for that
something else, along with what the distributed system has already cost
them. As for the noise level, Nashville had several good small jazz
clubs
back in the '60 and '70s and the corwds were just as noisy as at any
other
culb where people were drinking and partying.

So your only example of this is from back in the 60's and 70's? Wow.
Again, thank you for playing. Nothing like 30 and 40 year old info to
work off of! Also, I wasn't talking about installing the JBL's I
suggested. I can see upon re-reading that I may not have been clear,
but I was talking about TRYING the JBL's, as they should try just
about ANYTHING they decide to install, and see if it seems like it
will work. Any company willing to do the install, or provide equipment
for the install, should be willing to let that happen.

Possibly, and it will most likely be in an empty room, where it will
sound great... until the club fills up wiith drinkers and partiers...

The problem is the "summarily", my suggestion was dismissed out of
hand,
without the consideration that an investment of money and time deserves.

No, that's not the case. In his VERY FIRST POST, Brian stated that
he'd considered and dismissed your suggestion. You made it anyway.

I hope the system Brian decides on works out for the club owner. As for
irritating, it wouldn't have been necessary for me to go through all this
had my suggestion been taken seriously in the beginning. I would have
made
the suggestion, answered any questions that might have arisen and that
would
have been the end of it.

Sorry, Mike. It's just really fun and easy to dismiss your suggestions
when they're so completely, utterly, totally off-base.

Unfortunately, you aren't qualified to make that judgement.


The issue arose when you started dismissing my
suggestion out of hand and implying that I didn't know what I was talking
about, had you not done that, this discussion would have been over long
ago.

And as Brian said, No, it wouldn't.

Corey



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