Re: Sound Installation Advice


"coreybenson" <coreybenson@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:1194621508.177193.145090@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
On Nov 9, 12:16 am, "Mike Rieves" <mr...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I doubt if most patrons will even have a clue if one of the cabs stops
working. Frankly, I doubt if most patrons can even tell if it's
DISTORTING.

Keep in mind that Brian is talking about a jazz and blues club, and those
folks tend to be a bit more musically sophisticatted than most folks. i
think they'd notice.

I agree. It's also why I think going with the traditional peaky-and-
built-for-efficiency-not-necessarily-good-sound FOH cabs isn't
necessarily the right thing to do, Mike.

What I had in mind wasn't the traditional peaky-and-
built-for-efficiency-not-necessarily-good-sound FOH cabs. I was thinking
about good pro-sound cabinets like some of the JBL stuff.


I'm going to change tactics here. What SPECIFICALLY would you suggest,
in the less-than-$4k range, to provide high quality background music
for the entire club, which won't blow away the patrons at the front of
the bar, while providing high quality sound at the other end?

Specifics, Mike... tell me what exactly you'd suggest, since you seem
to think what others have suggested is so wrong, I'd like to see what
you come up with. Here's your opportunity...

Off the cuff, a pair of the JBL PRX 515 speakers might work rather well in
that club.
Street price around a grand apiece, self powered 500W total continuous,
1000W peak, peak SPL 133 dB, freq range 45 Hz to 20 KHz, so no subs
necessary. Easy installation, just hook up a CD player and EQ, and you have
a good sounding background music system. Add a mixer and you have a system
with plenty of power for live music, including bands.

Every club I had anything to do with had at least one spare amp in the
rack, along with a spare EQ and electronic crossover for bi and tri amped
systems, including several I put together sound systems for. The backup
EQ
and crossovers were generally cheap units, just enough to get by while
the
primary units were being repaired or replaced. I added it into my bid and
if
they didn't want it, they could get someone else to do the system. The
clubs
I managed also had a spare board and DJ mixer, just in case. You're right
though, many club owners just buy what the absolutely have to have

You're a very special person, in a very special area, Mike. I've done
LOTS of installs... exactly two of them understood that having spares
made sense. I'm glad you have a different experience than I've had.

Nope, if the club owner didn't agree with me, I let him find someone else
to do the job. That happened on occasion, and sometimes I later got the job
of straightening out the mess the original installer made.

If you use a distributed system, I bet most patrons won't even be able
to tell something went wrong, if the cab just dies. If it's making
ugly noises, turn it off. Done.

Again, we're talking about jazz and blues fans, and they generally have
better ears than your average rock, country or dance club patron.

Yes, they do. And (having worked quite a few Jazz clubs in my day) I
disagree with you. As long as they can hear the vocals, they'll be
fine.

Plus, we're still talking about background music, with rare use as a
vocal reinforcement system.

Have you read his specs/requirements?

Well, Mike, I actually read what he's planning on using the system
for, which is background music. In this use, a distributed system does
a much better job than a loud point source system like you're
suggesting. And frankly, there are very few reasonably priced systems
that will sound as good as parking a bunch of studio monitors around
the room, especially at the size he's described.

In a club as small as the one he's talking about, with the speakers
mounted up high, the sound level will be pretty homogenous throughout the
club and without the phasing and timing issues of a distributed system,
it
will probably sound better, if the distributed system isn't set up
perfectly. He did mention that the system would be used for live acoustic
music on occasion, and hinted that there might be amplified live music on
accasion as well. Why not design for that eventuality so a second system
won't be needed for those events, especially since the costs will be
comparible.

Hey, I'm all for overbuilding a sound system with an eye for the
future. Please re-read my statement below:

I disagree with your assessment. I find distributed systems fairly
easy to install and get sounding good. At most, the club MAY have a
vocalist that MIGHT use the system, now and again. Other than that,
it's going to play background music.

I'm still disagreeing with you, Mike.

Fine, disagree with me all you want. You might note that I wasn't
disagreeing with you, just trying to point out that it might be worth
considering doing it another way. If that hurt your feelings, I'm sorry.

Please name a local pub that uses a large FOH style PA for background
music, when there ISN'T a band on stage. I'm sure you can, but they're
just plain silly.

All of 'em around here, unless they use a jukebox. The FOH is
generally
used for live music, karaoke, and background music when there's no band
or
karaoke going on. It's pretty much the same in Nashville as well. Most of
the small clubs around here either have an FOH house system, or they have
a
regular house band that leaves their PA in the club all the time. The
ones
that don't have either a band or karaoke usually just use a jukebox.

So, name a couple in your area. I'll call them and ask how they're
doing it. Cuz I don't believe you. I'd be willing to bet there are a
bunch of small speakers that run the music UNTIL the band starts up,
at which point the band takes over handling FOH and background music.
I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I'm not.

You'd lose your bet. If they don't have a jukebox, there's usually a CD
player hooked up to the FOH and that gets played until the band, DJ, or KJ
starts. I'm not giving names for obvious reasons, I don't want club owners
mad at me because some nut is calling them asking them how they run their
music. And frankly, I don't give a rat's ass whether you believe me or not.
I'm tired of people around here doubting everything I say. I try to give a
little advice and a fair assesment of the situation, including both sides of
the issue, and I get called a liar. I'm sorry you think I'm stepping on your
toes because I'm suggesting something other than what you think it ought to
be, but I'm trying to give him other options. I'm not insisting that he
should do it my way.

I've been in over hundreds upon hundreds of clubs... ranging from
crappy little dives to some of the most upscale places in the country.
I don't think you're correct, Mike.

Fine, that's your opinion. However unless you've been in the clubs around
here, your opinion has absolutely no weight or basis in fact.

Well, it's for Brian and the club owner to decide, I just want to make
sure he sees both sides of the issue, before committing to either system.
Personally, I would go for a small FOH setup, but that's just my opinion
based on my personal experience.

I think Brian is quite familiar with both sides of the issue, Mike.

If he goes for the distributed system, I hope he keeps in mind the
relative
lack of speaker efficiency in powered monitors or home speakers, compared
to
SR speakers. If he doesn't, he may find the system woefully inadequate
when
the club is full and folks are drinking and having fun.

As I pointed out above, your concept of decibels is way off the mark,
Mike, so I think he'll be just fine.

How is my concept of decibels off the mark? Have you ever used an SPL
meter in a small club full of people drinking, talking and partying late in
the evening? If you haven't, try it, you might just find that your concept
of decibels is 'way off the mark.
As I said, Brain can do it any way he and the club owner choose to do it.
I hope he lets us know what he did and how it turns out.


.

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