Re: Band Uisng Tripplite Line Conditioners/surge-suppressor

On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 10:53:53 -0500, bud-- <remove.budnews@xxxxxxx>
wrote:

w_tom wrote:
On Jul 24, 1:05 pm, JP <J...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Give us an example (web site) where this is demonstrated both visual
as well as explained in layman's terms...I would like to see at least
a blueprint of this wired up correctly in a house or commercial
building as well as bom with specs or at least the bom of the parts
for the earth with specs - (brand, model number, ect)
AFAIK, the only ground wire on homes are from the main breaker box
to a 10' grounding rod with a fat copper wire. Maybe two ground
rods...the calble , ect are grounded on water pipes and such..
Why isn't an equipment ground good enough to ground equipment?
Isn't that what it is for?

Again, equipment ground is low resistance but not low impedance.
Put 100 amps of 60 hertz AC electricity on that Romex wire. Voltage
between wall receptacle and breaker box is probably less than 10
volts. But put a 100 amp surge on that same Romex wire. Voltage
between wall receptacle and breaker box is probably something less
than 12,000 volts.
.
Not explained - how you get 12,000V past a service panel that will
arc-over at about 6,000V or receptacle that will also arc-over at about
6,000V.

Missing from w_'s explanation - a surge is a very short event. That
means it has high frequency currents. At those frequencies the
inductance of the wire is more important than the resistance. If you are
using a plug-in suppressor the impedance of a branch circuit 'ground'
wire prevents much conduction of a surge to earth.

But the IEEE guide explains plug-in suppressors do not work primarily by
earthing a surge. They work primarily by clamping (limiting) the voltage
from wires to the ground at the suppressor. The voltage between wires
going to the protected equipment is safe for the protected equipment.
That must include all wires, including phone and cable if they connect
to the protected equipment. There is a good explanation in the IEEE
guide (with diagrams) starting pdf page 40. The IEEE guide also explains
that when using a plug?in suppressor earthing occurs, just not primarily
through the plug-in suppressor.

Because plug-in suppressors do not directly work by earthing a surge
they violate w_'s religious belief in earthing and w_ believes they can
not possibly work.


Because of arc-over at a service panel at about 6,000V (US) and the high
impedance of a branch circuit, the current (and thus energy) to a
plug-in suppressor is greatly limited. Surprisingly little energy
(Joules) can reach a plug-in suppressor.
.
Cable TV needs no surge protector. A properly installed cable drops
down to earth before entering a building.
.
Needs no protector? The IEEE guide says "there is no requirement to
limit the voltage developed between the core and the sheath. .... The
only voltage limit is the breakdown of the F connectors, typically ~2?4
kV." And "there is obviously the possibility of damage to TV tuners and
cable modems from the very high voltages that can be developed,
especially from nearby lightning." (A plug-in suppressor will limit the
voltage from core to shield.)
.
The NIST guide bluntly says same:
.
But what does the NIST guide say about plug-in suppressors?
They are the "easiest solution".
.
Every responsible source notes this fundamental need for low
impedance earthing. From an IEEE Standard - the Emerald Book:
From IEEE Emerald Book (Std 1100?):
.
The Emerald Book recognizes plug-in suppressors as an effective surge
protection device.
.
Before entering a building, every wire must first make a short (ie
'less than 10 foot') connection to earth. A connection directly
(cable TV, satellite dish) or a connection via a 'whole house'
protector (AC electric, telephone).
.
In the case of phone and cable entry protectors, you want a short wire
to the ground *at the service panel*. The author of the NIST guide has
written "the impedance of the grounding system to 'true earth' is far
less important than the integrity of the bonding of the various parts of
the grounding system."

With strong surge currents to earth, the 'ground' at a house will lift
thousands of volts above 'absolute' earth potential. To protect
equipment connected to both power and phone/cable, the ground reference
for power and phone and cable must rise together. That requires a short
connection wire. The consequences of a wire that is too long are
illustrated in the IEEE guide starting pdf page 40.
.
A surge protector is only as
effective as its earth ground.
.
The statement of religious belief in earthing. Everyone is in favor of
earthing.
But plug-in suppressors work primarily by clamping, not earthing.

Never seen - a source that agrees with w_ that plug-in suppressors do
not work.

Both the IEEE and NIST guides say plug-in suppressors are effective.
To institute his method, every plug would have to have it's own pole
connection, meter, breaker box, and ground rod. Otherwise, multiple
ground rods on one meter box would set up ground loops and cause
trouble.
I know for a fact that these things I suggest - Tripplite Isobar
surge supressors work because I have been standing at the workbench
with a dozen computers burning in when my building got hit by
lightening from a storm that had sneaked up on me. It caused the new
pole and transformer to explode and fall over. I saw these machine get
hit a few times right in a row but the surge protectors saved them
all.A few other appliances got killed that were not in the surge
protectors. And those were AT type computers and some of the
components were very sensitive to surge damage.
I am not doubting what he is saying might be true but it would be
impractical to instigate, especially in a mobile situation like amps
are used...
I would never put more than 20 amps 0n 12/2 wiring either...100 amps
is 5 times the overload on that wire.
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Surge protection without grounded plugs
    ... it must earth that surge somewhere. ... Because plug-in suppressors violate w_'s religious belief in earthing he has to twist what Martzloff says about them. ... Again, you are ignoring wire ... specs even claim protection from the type of surge that does damage? ...
    (sci.electronics.basics)
  • Re: MOVs and surge suppressors
    ... happens to surge on neutral wire. ... Because it does not conform to his quack views, w_ cannot understand when the IEEE guide explains plug-in suppressors work primarily by clamping the voltage on all wires to the common ground at the suppressor. ... Perhaps that is because a service panel suppressor would provide no protection. ...
    (sci.electronics.basics)
  • Re: Band Uisng Tripplite Line Conditioners/surge-suppressor
    ... surge supressors work because I have been standing at the workbench ... hit a few times right in a row but the surge protectors saved them ... Because of his religious blinders poor w_ is unable figure out how plug-in suppressors work. ... It is explained in the IEEE guide. ...
    (alt.guitar.amps)
  • Re: Power Cord For Laptop
    ... Bud is not recommending 'quality' surge protectors. ... The illustration in the IEEE guide has 2 TVs. ... Plug-in suppressors have voltage ...
    (rec.travel.cruises)
  • Re: Electrical Short...
    ... My only association with surge protectors is I have some. ... explains that plug-in suppressors work primarily by clamping the voltage on all wires to the common ground at the suppressor, ... The IEEE is the major association of electrical engineers in the US and publishes standards on surges. ...
    (alt.home.repair)