Re: OT - Timepax . . ! ! ! This CAN'T be..!! Can it >. . ? ! ? ! ? ! ? !

playun wrote:
On Tue, 20 Jun 2006 22:55:36 GMT, gtski <xxgtskixm@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:


playun wrote:

On Mon, 19 Jun 2006 12:25:30 GMT, gtski <xxgtskixm@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:




But here YOU go...

Instead of having Rick Wolff *interpret* economic reports and statistics FOR you... maybe you should learn some economics, statistics, and make more than a feeble attempt at *understanding*.

Give this a try...

http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/05/art1full.pdf

Read the whole thing, if you can.

I'll quote but twice from this report...

First... maybe to save you having to read the entire report and get bogged down in trying to understand the contents...

"Increases in employee compensation substantially outpaced increases in consumer prices during the late 1990s. Most, but not all, data series indicate that real compensation continued to grow from 2000 to 2003, although at a somewhat slower rate than in the late 1990s.


OK, but did you see the graph in my post that pointed out the workers are
being asked to produce far more labor than formerly? So what happens is
people are working a lot harder and longer, for a little more money.
Everyone has less time for their kids, etc.



Changes in compensation--or, more specifically, changes in "real" compensation after accounting for consumer price inflation-- are among the most widely watched indicators of economic performance."


See above.



That is except by you... you read bull*** op-ed pieces to get *their* opinion on some political economic position.

Second...

"The last column... shows that real hourly compenstaion in the nonfarm business sector increased 32.2 percent from the fourth quarter of 1979 to the fourth quarter of 2003. That increase is similar to the 26.8 percent inrease in the ECI for total compensation. Such similar trends seem logical because, despite the many methodological differences between the realy hourly compensation series and the ECI for total compensation, these series are the only ones that include employers costs for benefits in addition to wages and salaries."

*****************
Oh, and your citing of the *opinion* piece by Mr. Francis is typical of your *opinion as fact* approach to 'debate'.


There was a lot more that I posted that you didn't respond to... some of it
derived from US Govt. Labor statistics.



This, from his article, is cute... "More than 1,000 wealthy Americans have joined a related group, Responsible Wealth, to fight to preserve the estate tax."

Not really economic *analysis*, more like a sales pitch...???


Well, is it true, or not???



And this...

"As for remedies to income immobility between generations, a huge effort at better education of the poor would help."


Now aint' that a 'feel good' addition to ANY economic analysis...!!!


Do you maintain that educating everyone is a bad idea? Right now we import
educated people (engineers, doctors, nurses, etc) because we don't have
enough here to meet the demand. But what's really great about importing
these people is that we don't have to pay them as much as American
professionals would expect. In other words, instead of training American
nurses, we just hire them from the Philipines. And those people will work
for less.



The Fallout from Falling US Wages
by Rick Wolff Real wages in the US rose during every decade from 1830 to 1970. Then this
central feature of US capitalism stopped as the figures below show:

Source: Labor Research Associates of New York based on data from the US
Department of Labor, Bureau of Labor Statistics; wages expressed in
constant 1982 dollars.

1964 $302.52 1974 314.94 1984 279.22 1994 259.97 2004 277.57


No comment? This isn't opinion, this is fact.



I don't know where you live but in Seattle you can hire illegal immgrants
to paint your house for $10 an hour.

Well, there ya go sparkster..!! Painting isn't carpentry... eh..???


Look. What % of illegal immigrants are skilled laborers, such as a
carpenter?



That ain't no $80k a year and it's
barely a living wage in this expensive city.

You confuse "living" with some cushy perception of the word. You need to get out in the world a bit, maybe even other countries and see what a 'living wage' means to some people.


You keep wanting to compare the USA to a 3rd world country... I guess you
don't like to set the bar too high. I prefer to compare the USA to what it
was 20 or 30 years ago.



I know all about it. I've spend time in developing countries. Your
dumbass argument seems to be, "it's really bad in other places, so it
doesn't matter that it's getting worse here".

But a lot of people don't think it's getting worse. So are YOU right and they are wrong..???


A lot of people do. A lot of people have no savings. A lot of people have
no education. A lot of people are addicted to drugs. A lot of people have
wretched nutrition and are obese. These trends have been growing worse --
personal debt, health, bankruptcy rate, etc etc.



If you don't think a growing
economic inequality between the rich and the rest of us will be a problem
you're nuts. When the gap gets too big, social instability is
inevitable... witness the unending turbulent politics and wars of the
developing world.

Ummm... that's a stretch dude. I see you need some history lessons as well.


Apparently you do...



Your admonition that we're on our way to "the unending turbulent politics and wars of the developing world.." is sure to be backed by some data/precident, right...?? Or is this just YOUR opinion..??


It's the way of the world -- social inequality inevitabley preceeds social
unrest. They are prepared for this... why do you think Halliburton and
others are building these giant internment camps.

I notice you don't argue that there is not a growing gap in American
income, nor do you seem to think that's a bad idea. Once again, the greed
is showing, the "*** everyone else, I got mine" attitude that is the
Republican stock in trade.



Just because things are even
worse in Mexico doesn't mean things are great in the US... is that your
motto -- "America, better than Mexico"?


Hmmm... is your motto - - "America, all fucked up.".????


More like "America, what happened"? Because things are changing, and not
for the better.

Your motto "America, what happened..??" is very appropriate. You don't know what "happened"...


I know exactly what happened. Americans are being dumbed down & the
American worker is getting screwed. The expectations of the American
worker have been sucessfully lowered in the last generation or so. If you
don't have at least a 4-year college degree nowadays you are pretty much
fucked in the job market. And even college grads are having a pretty tough
time... people who aren't rich are coming out of college $20-30,000 in debt
from their student loans from the start. tha

Well, basically, you are pretty much without a real clue... so, unable to dissuade you from your fictionalized perception of the world, I might close in saying that "people who aren't rich are coming out of college $20-30,000 in debt" is probably wrong as well. I would take the position that the figure is HIGHER (more debt).


Yeah, I was being conservative.


No, I don't believe so... you were basically un-informed as usual. Claiming 'conservative' later... is a dodge, you should've included it in your original estimate...



This comment by you seems to imply that "it's somebodys fault" the COST of higher education is so high. For convenience sake I'll assume that you feel it's the *right*, or Republicans fault.


The cost of EVERYTHING is higher, but the cost of tuition is way ahead of
inflation.

And whose "fault" is it this..??? Explain to the folks why the cost of education so high, and increased at a higher *rate* than inflation..

One problem, the Pell grant has not been raised to keep pace
with inflation, let alone with tuition rates. Your favorite administration
has also just made college loans more expensive. Why do you guys hate
education?

Hate education..??? That's YOUR words... nobody hates education... you dope. I don't like the COST of education... it's way out of line with the benefits... as you yourself have stated. Why should grant money be INCREASED to pay for education that you yourself say doesn't get anyone a good job...???



But in one breath you say how *worthless* a college education is,


When did I say this??? I said that if you didn't have one nowadays you
were S.O.L. as there are fewer blue collar gigs now that pay for ***.

then

you state how much debt 'non-rich' people are taking on to GET this 'worthless' education. Is there a 'mistake' being made here...???


Excuse, again where did I say that a college education was worthless? You
seem to be basing your entire arguement thinking that I said this.


If so, who is making the mistake...?? And why should a college education guarantee a good job...??? Should the Govt pay for everyone to get a college education that won't get them a "good job"..???


???


FWIW, I've noticed two things over the last 30 yrs... way over half of the richest people I know or have met, don't have a college degree of any kind... (and these folks are REALLY, REALLY RICH)... and over the last 15 yrs I haven't met a plumber (college degree or not) that makes less than $100,000 per year. (I might add, that the plumbers WITH a college degree seem to make no more than those without a degree.)


You must live around a lot of people with money.

Yeh... and like I said, many of them don't have college degrees... hell, even cops in my town after 5 yrs are making $80,000... no college degree necessary.

Contrary to your beliefs
most people in this country do not make anywhere near $100k a year.

Where did I say "most people" in this country make $100k per year..??
I DO happen to know a metric ***-load of people who make $60k or more per year, and with their two-income family, make $120k + per 'household'.

There
are a lot of powerful and wealthy people who did go to college...

Well... duh... (?!?!?!)


and you can bet that these high-school-diploma rich people that you know will send
their kids to good schools.

Yep. Most send their kids to Catholic schools, and/or move into neighborhoods with GREAT school systems... (ie-trade private school tuition for higher property taxes... same *cost* but higher real-estate appreciation).

Sending their kids to college is not because they feel it absolutely 'necessary' (they know otherwise from personal experience) but simply because they CAN and it won't *hurt* to have the education.



But hey, maybe the NEXT wave of illegal aliens will take on THAT trade. This, as opposed to the bull*** you believe about 'skilled labor' immigrants.


You beleive most of the illegal immigrants coming here are skilled? Yer
nuts. Most of them are working at the very bottom of the economy.

No... YOU'RE nuts... you have no clue where these people are working. There are TONS of temp labor companies that *deliver* day-workers to any address. These *workers* are dropped off at the job sight, have their lunch with them... and are *exchangable* for the first two hours. When hiring them, you are asked "What skill are you looking for..???" And they match up the worker to the task. The cost is a daily *rate*... the worker is insured, dropped off, picked up, and they call to check on a satisfactory performance. Where have YOU been pal...??????



I just observed a three week 'implementation' of a corporate software package to bring a newly purchased subsidiary 'online' with the REST of this huge company. The company overseeing the job was owned/run by software "engineers" that are immigrants.


So fucking what?

Well, YOU are the one claiming that the immigrants "work for less money"..!! THAT'S what..!! What is so fucking what is that these *immigrants* are competing IN the USA, with US workers, for top dollar contracts, skill set to skill set. That's fucking what...

If you think that represents the majority, you're nuts.

No YOU'RE nuts... when the American public is presented with identical performance, they will choose the lowest cost... period.
YOU claim that these people offering the 'lowest' cost are not getting a living wage... THAT is bull***. These people offering the lowest cost are buying houses, new cars, and sending their kids to college.


And we were talking about ILLEGAL immigrants, remember? Don't change the
subject.

You didn't say "illegal" but I'm talking about both anyway... there is a HUGE home-building corporation that builds tons of HIGH-PRICED homes... they use only highly skilled workers to build FINE expensive homes. They mentioned to the press how when a *rumor* that an INS agent was in the developement, the ENTIRE place became deserted.... he was talking about hundreds of workers... disapearing because of a rumor...



They absolutely did NOT work for cheap. In fact I was surprised the corp paid so much for what their OWN IT dept could have done themselves It HAD done it in the past numerous times. It's a 'consultant' thing... I'm sure you wouldn't understand that either.


Blah blah blah.

Uh-oh... the 'blah blah blah' is what..??? You're lack of real insight..??? You don't like this *fact*...???


So where were they from, India? It's not news that we are
importing engineers from India. Import the jobs, or outsource them... it's
all bad news for American workers either way.

It's 'bad news' for American workers who can't compete... but WAIT, these 'immigrants' are **becoming** Americans... oh, ain't THAT a bitch..!!! They are immigrants who are MORE productive, better educated, and more motivated than who..??? Other Americans..???

Keep up your boo-hooing....



Oh well...

You are welcome to your view of reality, whatever you base it on... as am I. Someday, you may learn that "the good old days" weren't all that good...


You mean like the days when a guy could make enough money working in a
factory to support his family while his wife raised the kids... that wasn't
too good, huh?

What factory...??? The Honda factory..??? The Toyota factory..???? Or the factory where the union price the worker out of a job..????

This brave new world where millions of couples are working
their asses off just to stay even, that's better?

You're an idiot... couples are making a TON of money and living beyond their means... simple as that. But THAT is another issue...

Where housing costs are
so high in most cities that people like teachers and policemen can't afford
to buy a place in the communities they serve?

HA..!!! That is funny. policeman in MY town, can easily afford to live in my town... they 'lobbied' (whined, moaned, and threatened a strike) to be able to live out-of-town because they wanted bigger homes with LOWER TAXES... IE - the very taxes that PAY THEIR WAGES..!!!!!!!




and nothing that is happening these days is "new". The technology changes but people don't (all that much).


The technology is putting people out of work, maybe you didn't notice.

Well pup, THAT is news..??? That has been going on since the dawn of mankind. What's new there..??? Criminy, why bring up OLD news..???

People are the same, but people can be led, can be influenced, and can be
educated. It requires leadership that cares, and we don't have that at the
present time.

No. It requires a citizen with balls, and motivation. It's not the Govt's job to *gift* *** to it's citizens... what YOU want at the "present time" is a govt that GIVES tons of free *** to everyone.



Theres a 'coffee table' book I saw not long ago, it was front pages of the NYTimes for the last 100 yrs or so. I've seen other similar books. People have been bitching about how 'screwed up' the USA is becoming for over 100 yrs.


What's wrong with that?

It's incessant whining, moaning, and complaining... That's what's wrong with it..!!!!! Sheesh..!!!! Who wants to listen to the whining..???!!!!!

What's your problem with criticism?

None. If it's accurate, and not 'whining'... you whine.


That's what makes America great, you are supposed to be able to criticize your
government without going to jail or being killed.

No. That is NOT what makes America great.

But for YOU and others it is certainly a good thing not to be jailed or killed.




One would think the country was a paradise back in the 1800s... it seems hard to pick a decade over the last 200 yrs that didn't contain serious warfare, govt scandals, corporate *greed*, feel-good political programs that were worthless, etc..etc..etc... and complaints as to the impending downfall of the country.

Same thing now...


OK, so you don't believe in trying to correct things, and I do.

Things get corrected plenty. Very RARELY by whiners...

Welcome to your cynical world. "It's always been like that"... It hasn't always been
like this.

Sure it has... no matter WHAT progress is made, there are always the "whiners" who boo-hoo about some *** that isn't being done...

But... DESPITE the constant predictions of impending DOOM by all the whiners, complainers, and ever present boo-hoo'ers.. PLENTY of progress/improvement HAS been made.

I'm 54 and I've never seen an administration so basically
undemocratic in it's approach to government and that cared so little about
the welfare of everyday people.

And that shows your complete lack of "seeing"...

The end.


America's ideals were things like fairness, opportunity, and progress.
Reason and reality over superstition, rule of law over theocracy.
Enlightenment over ignorance.

Sheesh..!!! You're getting teary eyed...


Some of us would like to see the USA pursue these things. Other people
don't give a *** as long as they are making good money, screw everyone
else.

Criminy..!!!! Everyone else IS making GOOD money..!!!!! That's the point ya dope..!!!!! It's all the wankers who can't get their mediocre/lazy *** together... who want the govt(taxpayers) to PAY for what they want, yet won't save/work for..!!!

Point, game, match...

.