Re: Rich on Amp Use For Live Music. Part #2 Re: Once in a lifetimepirchase - tone monsters



Jim Anable wrote:
>
> Rich Koerner wrote:
>
> > Now that you all lived through part #1, without have busted a blood vessel, let's look at the
> > methods guys use to get tone, and what is going on.
> >
> > So, you have the example of the two kinds of guitar player that exists. Where the line I've drawn
> > between them is the use of a master volume. The major difference between these two types of players
> > is, one is going to have something the other has not.
> >
> > Now, let's take a pause right now, before reading any further, and give this some thought. What
> > really is, their difference, how does it impact the operation of total signal chain, in say an early
> > SF Deluxe Reverb with no master volume, and a later Deluxe Reverb with a master volume. BOTH amps
> > are EQUAL, with the exception of the master volume control.
> >
> > Let's really consider this for a while. What, is the master volume going to actually provide over
> > the one without it, with a stock strat with STOCK pickups.
> >
> > Oh,...... add that strat with STOCK pickups, and now we are locked into the limitations such
> > presents in this example.
> >
> > WHAT ARE THEY, and WHY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> >
> > Yes, I know it's bare bones. That's the point.
> > I want you all to SEE clearly, what the deal is here.
> >
> > BOTH amps have exactly the same gain, and BOTH are more than capable of reaching output tube
> > saturation with a touch of some speaker distortion with the stock pickups. This is assumed in our
> > example here.
> >
> > For some players, this is all that is needed. For some, it's not even close.
> >
> > So now, when the master volume control is brought into the mix, is turned down, all that is left, is
> > what small amount of pre-amp distortion, if any, is present at a lower volume. Is this desired.
> > Hell no.
>
> Not with the amp that you chose for your example. SOME preamps CAN
> manage a desirable saturation tone, to my ears. (More below)
>
> >
> > So, now we add into the mix an MXR Micro amp, to increase the output from the guitar without any
> > distortion added at all.
> >
> > Now, we turn up the Micro Amp to EQUAL the volume of sound of the non master volume Deluxe Reverb.
> >
> > WHAT, is the difference between the two amps now.
> >
> > What did the master volume allow us to do to change what operating characteristics between the two
> > amps.
> >
> > Take some time to think about this before you move on reading.
> >
> >
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> >
> > All we have done, simply stated, is we moved the source of the distortion from one place in the
> > amplifier to another. We now have an amp with output stage distortion moved, to the first triode
> > stage.
>
> Yes, my answer was that you are now saturating the first gain stage.
>
> >
> > The important thing to note here is that the tone circuits of one have no distortion present, and
> > the other does. It is because of this, things can get NASTY sounding, when the extreme is applied.
>
> Because of the EQ itself, and how it reacts to the distortion in the
> earlier stages? Doesn't that vary, amp to amp?
>

It can. But, the basic way EQ filters handle the square wave is the same.

That's why, most all the amps with this front end pre EQ distortion, sounds the same.




> > It is a fact of life, this is the way the EQ ckts handle the squared wave. Which, is NOT the case
> > with the non master volume Deluxe Reverb.
> >
> > To not loose anyone, let me state the current situation. BOTH amps are of EQUAL volume at the
> > present. One amp has the master volume, to pick a number out of the air, set to #5 with an MXR
> > Micro Amp in line to boost the CLEAN signal level from the guitar enough to get the first triode
> > pre-amp driven into clipping.
> >
> > Now, let's upset the apple cart!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> >
> > Let's put an MXR Micro Amp in line with the guitar hooked up to the non master Deluxe Reverb, and
> > adjust it for zero gain. Meaning, that is does not amplify above the level of the STOCK level of
> > the pickups thus far.
> >
> > Now, it's obvious that the level settings of the Micro Amps are NOT going to be the SAME.
> >
> > But, we are going to turn up each Micro Amp EQUALLY, let's say, two numbers.
> >
> > What just happened to BOTH amps!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> >
> > Again, take some time to think about this before reading on.
> >
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> > What happened is, in the master volume amp you increased the clipping through the pre-amp stage, the
> > EQ stage, and possibly the phase inverter to the output tubes.
> >
> > In the none master volume amp, you did none of that. You just increased what you had previously.
>
> Possibly, or if you hit it with enough boost, you'd also be distorting
> the preamp, no?

Till such happens, the output section is getting more of the same.

As you now approach first stage clipping, the output stage is far ahead of it, unlike the master
volume amp would be in comparison.






> The extra signal from your clean boost might distort at
> least the first gain stage.

Yes, it will.

> > Which, is the clipping found in the output stage, and speaker distortion. More of a good thing.
> >
> > Which, of the two, is more pleasant to the ear. Which, is not.
>
> In the Fender, agreed. In some other amps, I actually LIKE preamp
> distortion. (more below)


But, that is outside of this example, and brings in the personal taste thing. Which, has nothing to
do with the technical understanding of how the master volume functions in a basic amplifier.

Personal taste for the results, is just that.

A seperate non technical issue.


> >
> > Now, we keep EQUALLY turning up both Micro Amps Till the WALL is hit in BOTH.
> >
> > You will notice in the master volume it gets NASTY before you get better. In the non master amp,
> > none of that happens.
>
> If you have enough gain from your clean boost, you WILL be distorting at
> least the first stage of the non master, correct?

In my example, with stock strat pickups, it is not likely.

With high output pickups, it's more than likely.



> And if you keep the master turned up on the MV amp, it will behave like
> the non-master. Right?

In the case of my example, yes.

That may not be the case with other master volume ckts.


> SO...
>
> What happens if you take a GOOD master volume amp (2204, for example)
> and run the preamp with just enough gain to get a touch of preamp
> distortion, then turn up the master to get power tube distortion? Some
> preamp distortion and then power tube distortion is the tone that I like
> on my Marshall 2204. And with Mullards in the preamp, it sounds good to
> me. BETTER than setting master on 10 and increasing the preamp to the
> same loudness. My taste, my ears. So, in the Marshall, I have a mixed
> distortion focus. A little preamp distortion, then more power amp
> distortion.
>
> In my Mesa, I want even more preamp distortion and gain. THEN get the
> power tubes singing. In the Mesa, I focus mostly preamp distortion,
> with added power tube distortion. FWIW, I also run Mullards in my Mesa,
> because they just sound smoother. Even so, it may be too buzzy to some
> guy's ears (the same guys that just don't like high gain -- PERSONAL
> TASTES -- not a matter of "right" or "wrong" tone).
>
> In my Super Reverb, I run the preamp clean. The focus is only power
> tube distortion.
>
> Because of these varied focuses, I can't agree with the common wisdom:
> "Preamp distortion bad, power amp distortion good." It's personal
> tastes. And even I agree that the above axiom follows with the VAST
> majority of all amps out there, but not all. It may also follow for
> pretty much all clean and blues tones, and even many classic rock tones,
> but not for all tones. Not for metal, not for higher gain tones, IMHO.
>
> For example, I'm sure that your purple Marshall sounds fantastic set up
> like I run my 2204 (some preamp distortion, mostly power amp). You
> don't HAVE TO max the gain in that amp, right?

No, the amp has enough gain for my strat to drive it to full power. If that is what you are asking.


> You can get some preamp
> tube saturation, then finish it with power tube crunch, right? *That's*
> the Marshall tone that I like. Also, I've been told (was it
> Roccaforte?) that by the time a stock 1959 or 1987 is making the power
> tube sing, the preamp is NOT EXACTLY clean.

THAT, is totally pickup level dependent!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


> That the preamp tone at
> that level sounds different than the preamp when it is running clean.
>
> When I'm in a situation when I can't use power tube distortion, I'm more
> than happy with the preamp tone of MY Marshall, with MY tubes, and MY
> speaker cab. I can't always play LOUD. I prefer to, but I sometimes
> only use preamp distortion. My setup makes my ears happy. It's a
> compromise, but it sounds good. It lacks something, and it lacks
> IMPACT, but the tone is still good.
>
> In order to maximize my power levels, I use my inefficient Hiwatt/Fanes
> sitting a foot or so behind a leather sofa. But I don't do that after 9
> PM or so.
>
> So, if there are only two types of players (master or non-master), where
> do I fall? I do it both ways, and a mix of the two. Depending on the amp.

Some people can change hats. Some can't, or don't want to. That's, just their thing.



> > NOW, do you know why I crank my amps!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> I'm with you on that, but my cranked amps can have preamp distortion in
> the mix.

Hey, what ever works for a player that makes them happy is cool. I reallly have no comment.

Just because I like red heads and someone else is crazy about blondes, what's to say.

Now, the relevance of a natural or bottle blonde or red head, is really nit picking.

Same thing.


> > NOW, do you know why, non master volume amps take pedals better than master volume amps.
>
> Well, my master volume amps don't need pedals, especially with my EMG
> active guitars. But not all guys run their master volume amps with
> preamp at 10. If I don't over saturate the preamps, my master volume
> amps take my pedals just fine.

Too much, is too much.



> >
> > But, you are going to say, Hey Rich,... I have a channel switcher amp, or Mesa style amp.
> >
> > So,..... you moved the MXR Micro Amp onboard inside the amp chassis.
>
> Why would you want to do that? Just to keep it in the circuit to stay
> consistent with the example?

The function of the added gain stage the MXR Micro Amp provides in line with the guitar is no
different than me adding an extra stage to the amp's front.

The output tubes would never know the difference.


> >
> > But, the Micro Amp is sand, and my amp has tubes.
> >
> > So what!!!!
>
> Agreed! My problem with sand is when it's driven to clipping. Half of
> my guitars aren't unlike having a Micro Amp built right in (active EMG's).
>
> >
> > It doesn't matter to the next stage how the square wave is created.
> >
> > A square wave is, a square wave.
> >
> > What does matter in the amp's design, is whether the square wave is pre or post EQ.
> >
> > THAT, makes a big difference.
>
> I wish that I could do some recording, so I could demonstrate what my
> setup can do with distortion pre EQ stage. Then you could tell me if
> you think it sounds bad. I like it. You may not.

What I like doesent matter.

The point of all this, is that you are happy with what you have going on.



> > HOWEVER, with all this being said, too much, is TOO MUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> >
> >
> > Too much distortion, too much gain, too much EQ, too much etc..... equals NOISE!!!!
>
> Now we are back into the realm of personal tastes. I listen to lots of
> styles of music. Some of the high gain tones that I like could be
> considered "noise" to many other ears.

LOL, one persons too much, is anothers not enough.

LOL, three stacks on ten with all the pedals on ten is a hand full.

You all should have he chance to experience what too much can amount to.




> > What may sound good by itself, may not in a band setting be it on the stage, or the recording
> > studio.
>
> Absolutely! And this is an area that I have much less experience in, in
> recent years.
>
> >
> > Players with the amps that provide TOO MUCH, are purchased by that type of player, and are many
> > times have the nightmare amp that walks into the recording studio. They are always trying to create
> > what is not there from the blend of the other instruments not present in their practice. The amp
> > and the players who own them have that reputation the precedes them.
> >
> > They play by themselves more than they play with others. Therefore, they develop sounds that, don't
> > BLEND well with others.
>
> Point taken. I had to tweak my gains and EQ the last time that I
> jammed. For the room, and for the mix. I also found myself wishing I
> had the Vintage 30's with my low efficiency Hiwatt (I found myself
> brightening up my tone a bit). ...and, I found that I was running out
> of clean headroom on the Super Reverb, with the tube rectifier.

There you go.

GE's, or Sylvania's, and diodes.


> > This, many times leads to band member politics that gets in the way of a
> > good sounding record. All because, IT'S TOO MUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> >
> > The best sounds heard on record, many times, are not very good when listened to without the rest of
> > the band.
> >
> > When the master volume was invented, it opened the door for the nastiness.
>
> I agree, but I maintain that there's a right way and a wrong way to use
> a master volume. And that much of the conclusion is a matter of
> personal tastes.
>
> >
> > Some LOVE them, and use them as something only a mother could love.
> >
> > Roll tape!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> >
> > It's doesn't lie!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> >
> > Now, go adjust your tone so it blends with others, in your own space in the music.
>
> I hope to do that more. Finding the time, and matching that time with
> availability of other guys is the challenge.


Have fun, life is too short.


Regards,

Rich Koerner,
Time Electronics.
http://www.timeelect.com

Specialists in Live Sound FOH Engineering,
Music & Studio Production,
Vintage Instruments, and Tube Amplifiers
.

Relevant Pages

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