Re: Some useless philosophy.

On Jun 26, 2:11 pm, thistle <michael_this...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Jun 26, 12:10 pm, twofeathers <miketwofeath...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:



i think without the oposite to compare it with there could be no such
thing as the word good, love,joy, they would have to be named
something else. .

Whether words exist or not the intrinsic value still exists.
intrinsic: belonging to a thing by its very nature. A baby, a
preliterate child, a dog, feels pleasure at being caressed, kissed,
loved without having words to label the feelings. They don't need to
be beaten, hated, or subjected to any pain or suffering to experience
the happiness that comes from being loved, kissed, caressed. Whether
the word is happy, gelukkig, heureux, feliz,  whatever language or no
word at all the feelings and emotions exist.

but only a eudaemonist would find intrinsic value in happiness, ethics
dictated by society form what happiness, love or some other feeling
will generate. think of the child who is in the belly of a
woman....first thing he/she gets when born is pain of the birth
itself, from that moment on he can compare the two feelings of bad and
good. for the child that is born by c section it happens at sometime
in the first week,usually from the pain of hunger, or the feeling of
cold or some other outside force. so it is something learned, not
given naturally. you have to transend the idea of self to realise
these associations to get the answer. for any animal, which a human
is, these same feelings happen on birth, without those first feelings
they have nothing to compare future feelings.and it just doesn't stop
there....alot of studies on children in the womb are still imcomplete
per the dangerous actions of invading that sac, but even pain and
other outide forces cause reastions in the womb and so called
reactions are hard founded without access to the child, but the child
does react, and does have experiences to compare with after each
episode. twins or multiple births show children kicking each other,
tho accidently and without much force we know how fragil that body is
and the actual kicking can cause pain or unpleasant feelings. another
reference for the child to know good or bad.

one note is to look at births in tubs, with such births they have
actually made the shock of the birth itself much easier for the child
with only the birth canal hardships to endure, as they are pushed into
water that is the same temperature they were grown in, and when taken
out of the tub they are kept at that temperature so it is a gradual
aclimation to outside conditions for that child. BUT, the trauma of
the birth canal stills gives that child some reference, no matter how
subtle we see it, a reference point of pleasure and pain otherwords
good and bad for that child's brain to reference.
this follows any birth of any animal from an egg to live births, to
forming in a shell in the sand.all births are violent in nature, but
are normal as well all births give the animal a reference point no
matter how small to many things in life.

trying to associate feeling to a person who has some life experience
is hard to do, and can not actually be done unless you recognize the
child's life experience before birth and during birth, even tho the
child is not taught, it has learned something before even those on the
outside can even comprehend. and those feelings are good and bad.
even a sperm feels pain and horid death on its trip to try and be
first to the egg, once one sperm has made it the rest do without and
die. do they have thought? with our limited knowledge we can not say,
its like saying plants have no thoughts, but that has been prooven
wrong as well and pain and pleasure both were used to demonstrate
it.. our knowledge of our own species is so limited, and until
that knowledge improves to a certain point we will continue to not
know what the truth is.

even now to help the human child before birth many are trying outside
stimulation hoping to improove things for the child. words for parents
is prenatal enrichment. it was found a child in the womb starts to
hear sounds at 16 weeks. now imagine the stimilations from other
sources as well that the child gets????? to get another observation is
crack babies... do they feel only happiness when born? no not at all,
they experience withdrawls, and extreme needs, not to mention what
happens to the brain when a chemical has been introduced,now do they
only feel these needs outside the womb? from the moment of
introduction by the mother of the drug, the need is felt, the pang of
desire and need can be overwhelming at times too.

on twins, you will find if they are put togther in a crib they are
more inclined to be quiet but seperated more inclined to be like a
single birth. i experienced this myself with twins. they experienced
all the emotions inside the womb way before being introduced into the
world. they felt anger, happiness, and other feeling as well.(this was
shown with ultrasounds on some twins). one more thing is some even
have shown depression when the mother was depressed, why exactly they
don't know, but it did happen. little boys have been known to have
erections in the womb, yep feelings. whats funny is that it has been
shown when the mother was having sex, the child responded with eratic
heartbeats just like the mother during the mother's orgasm,
connection? maybe, it is just not known why yet.

so in ending thinking a newborn has no life experiences is wrong they
come out of the womb with many life experiences, we just don't realize
how much the mother has subjected them to and how much they have
LEARNED. mike
.

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