Re: No, Chuck, please don't do that

On Feb 10, 9:18 pm, hj st <hjayst...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Feb 10, 5:06 am, Sanity <sanity-cla...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Feb 10, 2:58 am, Chuck <livingli...@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
-sniped for brevity-
Let me see what I have here; "An Operating Plan as an alternative to a
permit is an improvement in some respects", emphasis on the word
"some" perhaps "somewhere other than here", "especially in terms of
the signature requirement; "but it is by no means a cure-all.", or
anything close to it. Cures nothing!  One step in "their" chosen
direction, it would seem.

Seems that way to me too.  An OP negotiated by the leaders of a group
is more binding in legal construction than a signature.  Cf. Scottie's
analysis.

what alalysis is this you always bring up?  ever since i've read what
he posted on agr mailside, i've wanted to copy a piece of it here,..

scottie said,..

"I think that we agree on this far better than Eu thunk.
        I suspect the disconnect is not about your autonomy in
gathering -- because that is precisely what I have fought to protect.
It's simply about what "council" is, and means:

        You (and the Guvmint) make it into something it is not (in
different ways):  It is neither a tribal ecclesium of Rainbow sooth &
sanction, nor is it a legal decision-making body for USFS official
purposes.  In fact, it's just a bunch of folks with nicknames talking
too much, a voluntary conversation in a forum of custom, one of many
expressive activities in the gathering.  Any bunch of folks can talk
on any topic, and agree to agree if they can -- or Not.  Sometimes
councils have good ideas, and lots of people agree, and some ignore
it.  Oh well.  At its best, it's a good way for folks to discuss
problems and foster cooperation in solving them.  That's about as far
as it goes in a consensual gathering.

        Looking at the ad hoc nature of a 'Rainbow Council' (aka,
'Counsel', here in Missouri), they cannot be what You or the Guvmint
suppose:
It is simply a free forum... nobody knows who goes, none is vested
with authority in attending; it cannot legally bind anyone to
proclamations or third-party deals (e.g., permits).  Its consensus
does not "represent" others or any embodiment of the whole... nor even
speak 'to' officials at all.  At most, it's a public statement by
those folks, which the Guvmint and Everyone might hear.  Period.

        However, Eu'right in a way -- the very existence of 'Rainbow
Council' IS a problem, giving rise to tribal and legal fictions about
it, on both sides.  Hippies who believe it has mysterious powers tend
to build the tribal mystique... those who say so to the Feds -- or
worse, invite them to attend -- walk everyone into a big fat hole,
because the Feds will gladly infer that it has legal authority for the
'Group', and will make it 'official' if they show up. "

I don't see Main Council(el) as that big of a problem because there is
almost always somebody there that is humble and sensable enough
realise the Circle is just an ad hoc discussion group with NO
LEGISLATIVE AUTHORITY. Carla and the other High Holies on the other
hand ARE a problem because, realizing they could never get an actual
public consensus, they went off on their own, un-elected, self
appointed and without any public mandate, justified solely by an
unsupported claim of necessity, and created the CoOpperations Council
as a communications interface between the gatherers and the FS.
CoOpperations Council passes itself off as vox populi, no mistake.

Yeah, Carla will prolly protest again, but never directly to me again,
that she doesn't take part in Co-Op clownshow anymore; however, she
started it and its credibility is inextricably linked to her
credibility because of that fact. Carla and her clique did an end run
around the Creed of open process. They say, "Anyone can attend and
participate!" (in their thing) but the manifest reason they took their
show on the road was and is they couldn't get consenci on their agenda
at Main Council, and they ADMIT IT!

Too big a mess. I go AGOTT.

Peace, Sanity
.

Relevant Pages

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