Re: anti-permit = anti-gathering.
<-ammitusen-@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> Traveler wrote:
>> -ammitusen-@xxxxxxxxxx wrote:
>> > traveler? not meaning to be rude or anything but if you and the other
>> > disabled folks who desire equal access to the entire gathering have
>> > able bodied support, money, materials and equipment what is stopping
>> > you all from going into the gathering and doing what you need to do to
>> > make yourselves comfortable as possible? just curious. and if you all
>> > dont have enuff able bodies i doubt you'd have much trouble enlisting
>> > more if you made your request for assistance in a polite and friendly
>> > way.
>> I think I just posted a partial response - sorry - I also sent a
>> response before asking if you'd read anything I had suggested but
>> that's unlikely so just for the short and sweet of what just I would
>> like to see...
>> 1) When folks with severe disabilities go backcountry THEY choose where
>> and when and since some know our mountains pretty well THEY choose
>> places that provide the type of access issues that are manageable for
>> them as individuals. No one can go everywhere in these mountains,
>> disabled or not. For a gathering the locations and accompanying
>> logistical issues are chosen by someone else without the experience and
>> the eye necessary to know what to see to find a location that is great
>> for a gathering and can provide great REASONABLE access for disabled
>> folk to get to.
> ahhhhhh. well okay. i guess you and/or some of the ADAPT folks you
> mention would have to volunteer to scout for gathering sites then.
> question tho .. are the severely disabled gonna be deciding for
> everyOne else where the gathering site is gonna be based on their needs
> and desires? or is there some consideration for the other 10-20
> thousand or so folks planning to attend? it may be just the way you
> express yourself but you seem to be saying that gathering sites should
> be determined based on your needs... like instead of you adapting to
> the site you want the site adapted to you. doesnt really matter to me,
> ya know. i'm not going to Colorada. i'm just interested on how you
> see this going down.
>> 2) And then there's programmatic access - one of the best writeups on
>> it is in The NFS Outfitters Guide to the ADA (or some such title - I've
>> posted before). I do recognize that it is for a commercial permit but
>> the explanation of programmatic access I think is excellent. It covers
>> most points that could apply as an analogy to Kitchens, latrines, drum
>> circles, teachings. Also a good, clear writeup about why no motorized
>> chairs or clearing paths or gradient leveling in a Wilderness area
>> allowed but NFS still must have raised fire rings and accessible tables
>> in wilderness camping areas.(progammatic access).
> hmmm not sure what you mean. i've been to quite a few gatherings and i
> can't say i've ever seen FS picnic tables and raised fire rings on the
> gathering sites. have you ever been to a gathering or know anyOne who
> went? when "we" say wilderness "we" mean WILDERNESS. when rainbow
> arrrives there are no paths (except game trails) and there are no
> unnatural gradients levels and there are no FS cleared camp spots ...
> at least not at the gatherings i've been to.
Please do some reading - please. The example of there being no requirement
for the NFS to do any Wilderness area architectural access by changing the
trail but still being required to do Wilderness area programmatic access in
their designated camping areas was only made so that you might understand an
example of programmatic access vs architectural access under Title III of
the ADA section on public accommodation - since you wanted an answer from me
on access. I tried to give you one. I give up. You go read it. You go
read it. You go read it. I've posted all the links I have, All
transparent, Don't take my word or argue with me - go read it yourself and
let us all know what your perceptions are.
You wouldn't be asking such questions if you would just do some simple
learning. I can't help you anymore if you don't want to understand. It's
not my job. But if you want to reach out to the disability community I'd be
more then willing to include a note from you in the mailing.
According to the people I was with at the fall Colorado Counsel that were
doing some of the preliminary scouting they were mainly looking at
"multiuse" areas in some of our NFS's here not "Wilderness" classfication
but there is an excellent NFS writeup on the ADA and Wilderness areas.
There was also a list of some kind at TGC with recommendations from NFS
(almost all immediately rejected I think) and again my understanding is
these were in multiuse not wilderness designated areas. I could be wrong on
the list but I don't think so, doesn't matter. We (I and others here) know
what Colorado Wilderness areas are like. I live in the NFS about 70% of the
time though not in the wilderness. I don't stray far from my RV. In fact
I've offered my RV as a base camp for some of the scouting to the Colorado
Family scouts when it gets started in a few months. Nice hot shower and
food after they spend a few weeks in the wild. Karen Z referred to the ADA
and Wilderness absolutely correctly in writeups once in a previous posting
session that was basically just like this one. And she described how things
basically worked for access in Calif - and I could only hope we would have
doneas well. It's not hard to learn this stuff if you want to. Again
though - my info was that we were looking at multiuse not wilderness though
that changes nothing at all. The permit is the only thing that makes your
discriminatory attitude legal. The permit allows for use by a group without
consideration for Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. You are allowed
to discriminate against us 'cause there's a permit in your hand from NFS.
But if there isn't a non-commercial special-use group permit and an NFS
gathering whether in Fla, Colo, Missouri, or Calif you're in violation of
the ADA if ya don't follow the regs on public accommodation and could be
subject to injunctions, suits, DOJ complaints - or ya could just try to work
with the disability community - doing nothing that would change the
essential nature of the gathering as decided by you - and we all go home
All this is just a repeat of postings of about a month ago. But none
matters - I'm just gonna pass info along to my community about the
gatherings - ok with you - you want to include anything?
>> 3) At one point I was communicating with someone from CALM and the
>> issue of personal care for disabled folk came up. I think it prettty
>> safe to assume that persons living daily with severe disabilties
>> requiring personal care, travel with their own attendents. Additional
>> coordination for those out of state could most likely be through the
>> Center for Persons with Disabilities in Boulder and with
>> Atlantis(ADAPT) in Denver. Both ILC's operate Medicaid/Medicare
>> certified Home Health Agencies specializing in assisting people with
>> disabilities to live independently in the community. Atlantis(ADAPT)
>> attendents routinely go around the country with the ADAPT disabled
>> folks for protests and political actions so they are very experienced
>> at making do with what's at hand.. CPD in Boulder is also the Boulder
>> Adapt I would think (might be wrong) that many of the folks with
>> severe disabilities that might want to gather with family and chant to
>> the Gods would be in those circles of the disability community.
>> Haven't talked to either though - just an educated presumption.
- Re: anti-permit = anti-gathering.
... >>>> you all from going into the gathering and doing what you need to do to ... >>> in wilderness camping areas.. ... > for the NFS to do any Wilderness area architectural access by changing the ... The permit is the only thing that makes your ...
- Re: remember when i said?
... some council did or did not do to your likeing or anyone else's likeing? ... some rainbow gathering that first, did not even have a council to decide to ... rainbows over there about what the private landowners that do not want folks ...
- Re: My Letter to Mark Rey
... in SF where there was a council to appoint a council to talk to the FS. ... After a long discussion about the reality that no representative body could possibley be created by a non-representative body (i.e. any gathering council), the following consensus was reached at Main Council: ... a lot of folks went to these meetings to make sure everything was on the up and up. ... Stop requiring a signed permit, when an operating plan would do just as well. ...
- Re: My Letter to Mark Rey
... Folks need to remember that this is not a small little ... never signed a permit. ... for gathering without a permit than most folks at the gathering, ... Signing is equivalent to claiming under oath that they are representatives, ...
- Re: Regarding "A Gathering of the Tribes"
... there should be no problem with folks travelling to either gathering. ... Lookingheart need your input on Some Missouri Rainbow. ... thinking of going to the Rippee Access. ...