Re: Defending SR (Was: All quit trashing BODI)

its no different than belonging to a pagan sect or christian or judean
group, all have their requirements and beliefs, even the muslim off shoots
like budha and tao, are not without their own controversies. what kind of
restrictions other than the white people have put out do i have, your
restrictions just don't exist in tribal culture. you keep trying to relate
my tribal culture to your christian beliefs, it may not seem so, and you
would probally say your not christian , but everything you use right now was
developed by that culture or one similar to it. even down to the put down
you use for me. maybe you should go back and see your own past tribal ways ,
you sure like using someone else's for your thinking. and by staying in the
christian rites you have no freedom that you speak of. thats the way your
language is. spiritrising


<-ammitusen-@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:1127496739.804788.157480@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> spiritrising wrote:
>> did you know that ndn's consider people of color , closer to ndn, than
>> the
>> whites could ever be? people of color were more accepted than the
>> whites.
>> spiritrising
>
> ya know? i gotta thank you, spiritrising, for helping to free me from
> the persistant desire to belong to a tribe. because of this discussion
> it has occurred to me that belonging to a tribe isnt all that its
> cracked up to be, that i was still harboring an idealistic view. being
> a tribal member may provide one with a sense of belonging but it also
> mean adhering to the collective consciousness of the tribe, a
> collective consciousness that believes in untrue things, untrue in the
> context of the wider world. one must subvert ones individuality to be
> a member of a tribe, believe in things whether they make sense or not
> because to believe otherwise puts one outside ones tribal
> consciousness. you MUST believe that i am nonhuman and below you
> because your tribe says so. you can not be an individual thinking
> individual thoughts. your thoughts MUST be the same thoughts everyone
> else in your tribe thinks. you MUST hold the same predjudices in order
> to be one with your tribe. whereas i do not belong to a tribe so i do
> not have a collective conscious that dictates what i must think and
> feel. i am an individual so i can think and feel as an individual.
> you are a part of a collective consciousness so you dont have the same
> freedom.
> its a trade off, i suppose. i was forced by history to adapt to a kind
> of isolation and loneliness but this isolation and loneliness allows me
> freedom to form my own thoughts and opinions. you have the security of
> belonging but you are restricted intellectually and emotionally by the
> boundaries of your tribal consciousness. i find that i prefer my
> freedom ... thank you helping me realize this.
>>
>> <-ammitusen-@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>> news:1127452986.514501.296610@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >
>> > spiritrising wrote:
>> >> i'm not trying to spin anything, thats the way it is in my tribe, and
>> >> the
>> >> only reference i have. now if i had been borne to another tribe, it
>> >> could
>> >> be
>> >> different but that is not the case. to you they are untruths to my
>> >> tribe
>> >> they are THE truth. it is not an opinion, just truth, the word
>> >> opinion
>> >> isn't in the language. there is no way to relate to someone with the
>> >> white
>> >> words as they match nothing in indian language.
>> >
>> >
>> > i don't place my self above
>> >> anyone, my culture did that,
>> >
>> > i have no problem with my reading comprehension. you're culture places
>> > you above me because i am not of the same culture. in my culture thats
>> > called "bigotry". whether there are words for that in your tribe's
>> > language or not thats what such an attitude is called in my language,
>> > the language we're using here. but okay ... i get it now. i guess
>> > you can't help the way you're culture is and what you've been taught.
>> > i gotta let the racist rednecks around where i live off the same kind
>> > of hook. not their personal fault that they were taught by their
>> > elders to believe that they're above people of color.
>> >
>> >
>> > and i am not going to change my culture. to do
>> >> so bends it to some other belief to fit some other thoughts. thats
>> >> something
>> >> you have not figured out as of yet. spiritrising
>> >>
>> >> <michael_thistle@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>> >> news:1127421622.625363.298660@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> > I'm not sure exactly when you see SR switching from deliberate
>> >> > untruths
>> >> > to attempting to educate. I don't think this is linguistic. I don't
>> >> > care much what words are used, I'll use whatever word the indians I
>> >> > talk to use, though absent that my first choice would be the more PC
>> >> > word. I've spent time with a lakota grand mother who called herself
>> >> > indian and souix. I certainly wasn't about telling her to use lakota
>> >> > instead. Some mixed blood indians have no problem with the word
>> >> > breed,
>> >> > some do. I certainly have no idea how most mixed bloods feel about
>> >> > the
>> >> > word breed. Its not the language and it isn't even the opinions
>> >> > though
>> >> > I disagree with many of them, its the way he frames it. As if his
>> >> > opinions are truth for indians. I recognize the theft of indian
>> >> > spirituality and I certainly don't support it. I have no interest in
>> >> > new age wannabe shamans. And there are indians, both full and mixed
>> >> > blood who seem to be just out for a buck, selling spirituality. But
>> >> > this is not just a disagreement between traditionals and sellouts.
>> >> > Among full blood traditional elders who are not out for a buck and
>> >> > are
>> >> > not whitified or christianized there is disagreement about the place
>> >> > of
>> >> > the white in indian prophecy and ceremony. And the same is true
>> >> > about
>> >> > the place of mixed bloods in indian culture and ceremony. I think SR
>> >> > knows that but is deliberately attempting to spin that fact away.
>> >> > Spin
>> >> > is just another word for lie IMO One indians opinion, Spirit's, not
>> >> > indians think. Since there is much difference of opinion among
>> >> > traditional elders and given the number of "untruths" told by SR
>> >> > that
>> >> > most often place himself above the subhuman others I can't help to
>> >> > think it bigotry. I've been pretty careful in this discussion not to
>> >> > express my opinion on the place of the white in indian prophecy,
>> >> > ceremony, or culture. That's not for me to decide. I suppose you can
>> >> > guess the position I tend towards but my position on any issue is
>> >> > too
>> >> > complex to be adaquately guessed.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Carla wrote:
>> >> >> Hey, thistle,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Never thought I would be speaking up in defense of SR, but I do
>> >> >> feel
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> need
>> >> >> here. I think the two of you are talking apples and oranges.
>> >> >> Cultural
>> >> >> and
>> >> >> linguistic differences are very real, as are the phenomena of
>> >> >> cultural
>> >> >> theft and
>> >> >> what is now becoming known in the social sciences as
>> >> >> transgenerational
>> >> >> trauma.
>> >> >> Seems to me SR could easily, in this case, not be coming from a
>> >> >> place
>> >> >> of
>> >> >> prejudice, but of linguistic and cultural difference. While the
>> >> >> word
>> >> >> "breed" is
>> >> >> known to be un PC to whites, it may not be considered that way at
>> >> >> all
>> >> >> among
>> >> >> Indians. I'll have to take SR's word on this. It is very true that
>> >> >> up
>> >> >> to
>> >> >> now he
>> >> >> has been very gamey and deliberately provocative, often speaking
>> >> >> deliberate
>> >> >> untruths to f*ck with folks' heads. I get the sense that this is
>> >> >> not
>> >> >> what
>> >> >> is
>> >> >> happening here, however. Seems to me he is making a real attempt to
>> >> >> explain and
>> >> >> educate, and this time it is -our- attitudes that are standing in
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> way.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> There have been discussions here in the past about cultural theft
>> >> >> that
>> >> >> have been
>> >> >> very meaty, and I have no doubt you remember some of them. SR's
>> >> >> objections to
>> >> >> cultural theft and cultural dilution are well-founded, in my
>> >> >> opinion.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Transgenerational trauma is also beginning to be recognized as a
>> >> >> significant
>> >> >> influence that disrupts the well-being of many (though certainly
>> >> >> not
>> >> >> all)
>> >> >> people
>> >> >> of Jewish, African-American, and Indian heritage in this country,
>> >> >> as
>> >> >> well
>> >> >> as
>> >> >> survivors of childhood abuse. I think it was Ayin who asked why the
>> >> >> experience of
>> >> >> racism or adverse circumstances affect people of color differently
>> >> >> than
>> >> >> it does
>> >> >> whites. It took me a long time to accept that it does, but there is
>> >> >> no
>> >> >> doubt in
>> >> >> my mind now that it is fact. What convinced me were the many hours
>> >> >> of
>> >> >> research
>> >> >> and reading I did in graduate school, and the very eloquent
>> >> >> articles
>> >> >> written by
>> >> >> people who have been affected by it.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Daily exposure to hatred based on nothing more than skin color or
>> >> >> ethnicity has
>> >> >> got to erode trust, faith, hope, self-confidence, and
>> >> >> self-efficacy.
>> >> >> There is no
>> >> >> possible way whites can comprehend what it is like to be mistreated
>> >> >> just
>> >> >> for
>> >> >> being who they are. You mulitply that by several generations of
>> >> >> grief,
>> >> >> hypervigilance, trauma, and injustice, and what you get are
>> >> >> significant
>> >> >> disruptions in healthy parenting, as well as significant negative
>> >> >> impacts
>> >> >> on
>> >> >> transmissions of family, community and cultural values (and I don't
>> >> >> mean
>> >> >> family
>> >> >> values in the sense that W. means them).
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Too short a time this early in the morning to expound further. I
>> >> >> would
>> >> >> simply
>> >> >> invite you and Ayin to look at things from different perspective.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Luv'n U.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> michael_thistle@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > spirit wrote:
>> >> >> > > but i ain't out there trying to change others to my beleifs, i
>> >> >> > > just
>> >> >> > > want
>> >> >> > > them to stay the same with out the newage white thinking put
>> >> >> > > into
>> >> >> > > it,
>> >> >> > > it
>> >> >> > > worked for thousands of years before the whites came, and can
>> >> >> > > work
>> >> >> > > for many
>> >> >> > > years more. and your wrong, people who are of the breed know
>> >> >> > > their
>> >> >> > > limits,
>> >> >> > > some go out and try to push their thinking and changeing the
>> >> >> > > ways
>> >> >> > > of
>> >> >> > > old to
>> >> >> > > make a buck. but it is not evident in tribes that people are
>> >> >> > > demeanered in
>> >> >> > > any way, and would never harm those who are different, again
>> >> >> > > thats
>> >> >> > > the
>> >> >> > > whites way,so please do, go, makes me think better with out
>> >> >> > > your
>> >> >> > > white
>> >> >> > > prejudice thoughts.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > sigh, I find I cannot let this stand without comment. The sad
>> >> >> > reality
>> >> >> > is we are all human, white, red, black, yellow, brown. In group,
>> >> >> > out
>> >> >> > group, perhaps is coded in our genes, evolutionary leftovers from
>> >> >> > the
>> >> >> > struggle to survive. No color is without some who harbor
>> >> >> > anomosity
>> >> >> > towards another color and those of mixed blood often get the
>> >> >> > worse
>> >> >> > of
>> >> >> > it. Not accepted by the color group of either parent. Indians are
>> >> >> > no
>> >> >> > more free of racism than blacks or whites. Mixed blood indians
>> >> >> > are
>> >> >> > harmed by the racism of whites against their indian blood and the
>> >> >> > racism of indians against their white blood. There are so many
>> >> >> > reason I
>> >> >> > know this to be true but one will suffice. I have mixed blood
>> >> >> > friends
>> >> >> > and they told me of their experiences. If no "breed" has ever
>> >> >> > told
>> >> >> > you,
>> >> >> > SR, I can only wonder why.
>> >> >
>> >
>


.

Relevant Pages
Loading