Re: statement of support to Cindy Sheehan


michael_thistle@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> -ammitusen-@xxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> > michael_thistle@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> > > -ammitusen-@xxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> > > > michael_thistle@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> > > > > -ammitusen-@xxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> > > > > > spiritrising wrote:
> > > > > > > i still wonder where all these dogooders where when i came back from the
> > > > > > > hilton in the nam? oh yeah throwing tomatoes at the pows in the stretchers,
> > > > > > > i see. spiritrising
> > > > > >
> > > > > > i wasnt old enough to throw tomatoes or even truly understand what was
> > > > > > going on but i'm sorry that happened to you and your fellow nam vets.
> > > > > > it was wrong to blame the soldiers for what the gov had you all doing
> > > > > > and i think the country as a whole is ashamed at how you guys were
> > > > > > treated when you got home.
> > >
> > > While I agree that the country is and should be ashamed at how the
> > > Vietnam vets were treated I don't think its wrong to "blame" soldiers
> > > for what they do. More than enough information has been available
> > > before every war for people to make informed decisions. There are other
> > > choices.
> >
> > oh really? you consider the stuff that the gov's propaganda machine
> > churns out to be "information"?
>
> Clearly I've pushed one of your buttons or you're looking for a
> fruitless waste of time fight. You know I don't consider the gov's
> propaganda to be info. You know that there was plenty of info available
> to counter it. You found it didn't you? What is your purpose in making
> a statement about me you know to be false?


sorry. i didnt mean to come off that way. i didnt chose my words
carefully. many pardons, please.
what i perhaps shouldve said is that what the was served up as info by
the US gov (even to the UN) was total bull*** propaganda and tho there
were those of us who immediately got suspicious there was no real proof
that there were no WMDs until the war machine was already up and
running and the kids were already being sent into the meat grinder. do
you not remember the national atmosphere then? how to even to murmmer
a question was traitorous. 9/11 had just happened, the whole nation is
doing a war dance, whatever opposition there is to the war is muted to
near silence, flags are waving everywhere. comeon! what does an 18
year old kid know? where is an 18 year old kid gonna look? or even to
know that he should be looking for something. the 60s are long gone.
the lesson forgotten by most. the cowboy of God is in the whitehouse.
USA! USA! USA!
>
>
>
> >
> > That someone decided to not make that effort and blindly
> > > follow another's lead, even, especially, the government's is not
> > > absolution from responsibility for their actions. Its not my job to
> > > condenm another but I will not pretend that being duped makes one's
> > > errors OK. Hopefully they, as I try to, learn from their mistakes.
> >
> > hmmmm of course you dont take into consideration the age group the
> > military targets for recruitment. kids ... teenaged male kids, whose
> > physical brains have yet to develope the ability to discern between
> > rational action and a rash actiion, whose desire to prove their manhood
> > and be accepted by a peer group is paramount. it's not like the
> > military seeks to recruit those over 25 yrs of age. but tough beans for
> > them, apparently. innocence is no excuse.
>
> Are you suggesting the age that a person is considered a child be
> raised to 25?

ah now. here you do to me what i did you above. you know i dont mean
that. but there is an age when the human brain has reached peak
developement and all faculties are functioning at optimum. the gov.
knows this and thats why the drinking age is 21 not 18. i think that
no kid should be recruited into a life threatening situation until
he/she is at least 25 ... in other words ... no longer a kid.

Of course I take age into consideration as a mitigating
> factor but it is not exculpatory. Peer group pressure seems to be of
> paramount importance to all age groups.

ya think? okay. perhaps. but at some point in adult life one no
longer finds ones self quite so willing to be destructive in order to
gain peer approval. at least thats my experience.

Sometimes it seems that is
> perhaps the major cause of so much evil in the world. Some under 25
> year olds are able to resist it. Some seem able to make the righteous
> choice.

hmmmm. slippery word "righteous". its so subjective. so more often
based in social definition than on a personal one.

You are free to feel that those in iraq have no responsibility
> for their actions because they are young and duped.

yes. i try to be empathic, try to remember how gullible i was at 18.

You are free to
> thank them and to feel they have earned honor for their service to this
> country. I don't feel that way.

thats fine.
>
> > > i think the reason the Iraqi vets are being
> > > > > > treated so differently is because the country is ashamed and has
> > > > > > learned a lesson thru your suffering and that of the other nam vets.
> > > > > > lesson being ... you can protest an abhorent war without blaming the
> > > > > > kids who are forced to fight it. thank you for your sacrifice and
> > > > > > service, spiritrising.
> > >
> > > While I can understand the difficulties presented by the choices
> > > available and sympathise with the situation a person finds themself
> > > confronted by, I see no reason to thank someone for being fooled by a
> > > con to do wrong.
> >
> > hmmmm let me get this straight. if someOne is conned into believing
> > something they are to blame for being conned. following that line of
> > reasoning when a child is conned getting into the car of a pedophile
> > that child is to blame for getting raped.
> >
> > Those in Vietnam and in Iraq were and are not
> > > performing a service though they may have been fooled into believing
> > > they are. Its sad to see someone fooled but that doesn't make it a
> > > service. What exact service would you thank a returning Iraq vet for?
> > > Thank you for believing the lies of the government? Though the
> > > information was not very difficult to find, thank you for not bothering
> > > to educate yourself?
> >
> > um ... when GW and his goons were gearing up for the war on Iraq where
> > exactly was this accurate info to be found?
>
> Silly to post this when you know the answer. Did you or did you not
> find that information yourself? Did you accept the propaganda or did
> you find alternative sources of information?

i did. but i'm not a war bedazzled kid.

Are you telling me that
> the computer literate 18 year olds of today were incapable of doing
> what I assume you did and I did? This teen who could rattle off the
> statistics of his favorite football team and its major players for the
> last 20 years is intellectually incapable of understanding the last 20
> years of america's interactions with Iraq?

not saying intellectually incapable ... just not encouraged to question
such things.
sheesh thistle! these kids arent encouraged to ask questions. their
history books are propaganda and pablum. all their lives they've had
cameras following their every move, their backpacks aand lockers
searched with dogs, the bodies scanned, pissing in a bottle is the
norm. do they protest? no. of course not. Big Brother is their
normal, their friend.


This teen who could give you
> the biographical details of his favorite rock stars and memorize the
> lyrics of 20 or more songs is incapable of finding the bilgrapical
> details of Saddam Hussein and GW Bush, or understanding the functioning
> of out government. Or did they decide learning about Eminem was more
> important than learning about the people they were about to kill?

i was a pretty thought filled kid too. but most of my peers (esp. the
boy) were pretty much a bunch of dunderheads out for a good time and a
quick lay. rock stars are cool. the mechanics of the gov are not.
and i just dont think the idea of being killed or killing is real to
people so young. its movie special effects and a digital blood
spurting video game.

I
> recognize the difficulty of the choice thrust upon the young. I
> sympathize and I'm grateful that I was never confronted with that
> choice. Though I was in the army durning the years of the Iranian
> hostage situation and all of us considered the very real possibility
> that we would be mobalized. I knew what my choice would be but I wonder
> if I would have had the courage to follow through.

curious. follow thru on what? killing or refusing to kill?

Fate, karma, or just
> bad luck thrust upon us all choices. Some of us are faced with choices
> that call upon us to nickle and dime our soul away. Others are faced
> with starker choices. But whatever the choice karma thrusts upon us we
> are responsible for the choice we make and the path we walk.

i'm still not clear what you mean by "taking responsibilty". soldiers
live (if they live) with wounds of all kinds. they are often cripped
by shapnel and by guilt. is that what you mean by taking
responsibilty?
..
> >
> > Thank you for the part you played in killing
> > > 100,000 innocent Iraqis and the hundreds of thousand more that will
> > > suffer or die from depleated uranium caused cancers and birth defects?
> >
> > i get the impression that once youre in the middle of the mess you're
> > looking out for your survival and the survival of your fellow soldiers
> > and the military conditioning you've received undermines any moral code
> > your mama instilled. but that doesnt matter does it? the state of
> > mind of the individual soldier isnt the point. is it? how young the
> > mind, how deeply brainwashed and conditioned isnt up for consideration.
> > is it? shoulda known better than to join the National Guard (weekend
> > warriors) or join the military (in the hopes of an education)in the
> > first place. tsk tsk on those immoral poor kids who viewed the
> > military as the only way out of their poverty.
> >
> > > I don't condenm
> >
> > seems like youre doing a pretty good job of it none the less.
> >
> >
> >
> > and I cannot absolve, each person must carry the burden
> > > of their actions themselves. But I will not pretend that being duped
> > > makes a wrong action good.
> >
> >
> > did i say it did? but i don't blame the waitress for serving crappy
> > food. i leave a tip anyway since she wasnt the one cooking.
>
> If the waitress took your complaint to the cook and the cook told the
> waitress to slap you around and the other employees egged her on would
> you still blame the cook if she came out and beat you black and blue
> for complaining?
>
huh?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Its just not that simple. I don't condone or encourage throwing
> > > > > tomatoes at vets. But responsibility for one's actions belongs to the
> > > > > individual acting. No one gets a free pass for the mistakes they make,
> > > > > not because they were young, not because someone, or the government,
> > > > > told them to do it. We all carry with us the psychological burden of
> > > > > our errors and theoritically, the karmic burden as well. Some were
> > > > > faced with more difficult choices and carry a greater weight because of
> > > > > it. But there's no escaping the responsibility for the choices we make.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > hmmm not sure what youre driving at here. the gov lies and young men
> > > > are duped (or even drafted against their wills) into doing things they
> > > > wouldve never normally done ... like kill a total stranger or get
> > > > themselves killed in a firefight in some foreign country.
> > >
> > > Being duped makes murder OK? Is that just in war or is being duped a
> > > defense for murder in any situation? Those who go to war carry a heavy
> > > psychological and karmic burden. Being duped does not lift it from
> > > their shoulders. Those who care to grow psychologically or spiritually
> > > will realize that and find a way to deal with their mistakes, their
> > > wrong actions. The rest will shunt it away in some corner of the
> > > unconscious where it will cause other problems.
> > >
> > >
> > > then they
> > > > come home after having spent years in a state of fight or flight, been
> > > > duped and misused by thier gov and find the very people they were made
> > > > to believe they were fighting for are hurling insults and tomatoes at
> > > > them. what kind of responsibilty are they suppose to take? how would
> > > > that taking of responsibility manifest, exactly? what "free pass" is
> > > > being expected or even asked for? i'm not trying to be
> > > > confrontational. i truly dont understand your meaning.

.

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