Re: statement of support to Cindy Sheehan


-ammitusen-@xxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> michael_thistle@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> > -ammitusen-@xxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> > > michael_thistle@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> > > > -ammitusen-@xxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> > > > > spiritrising wrote:
> > > > > > i still wonder where all these dogooders where when i came back from the
> > > > > > hilton in the nam? oh yeah throwing tomatoes at the pows in the stretchers,
> > > > > > i see. spiritrising
> > > > >
> > > > > i wasnt old enough to throw tomatoes or even truly understand what was
> > > > > going on but i'm sorry that happened to you and your fellow nam vets.
> > > > > it was wrong to blame the soldiers for what the gov had you all doing
> > > > > and i think the country as a whole is ashamed at how you guys were
> > > > > treated when you got home.
> >
> > While I agree that the country is and should be ashamed at how the
> > Vietnam vets were treated I don't think its wrong to "blame" soldiers
> > for what they do. More than enough information has been available
> > before every war for people to make informed decisions. There are other
> > choices.
>
> oh really? you consider the stuff that the gov's propaganda machine
> churns out to be "information"?

Clearly I've pushed one of your buttons or you're looking for a
fruitless waste of time fight. You know I don't consider the gov's
propaganda to be info. You know that there was plenty of info available
to counter it. You found it didn't you? What is your purpose in making
a statement about me you know to be false?



>
> That someone decided to not make that effort and blindly
> > follow another's lead, even, especially, the government's is not
> > absolution from responsibility for their actions. Its not my job to
> > condenm another but I will not pretend that being duped makes one's
> > errors OK. Hopefully they, as I try to, learn from their mistakes.
>
> hmmmm of course you dont take into consideration the age group the
> military targets for recruitment. kids ... teenaged male kids, whose
> physical brains have yet to develope the ability to discern between
> rational action and a rash actiion, whose desire to prove their manhood
> and be accepted by a peer group is paramount. it's not like the
> military seeks to recruit those over 25 yrs of age. but tough beans for
> them, apparently. innocence is no excuse.

Are you suggesting the age that a person is considered a child be
raised to 25? Of course I take age into consideration as a mitigating
factor but it is not exculpatory. Peer group pressure seems to be of
paramount importance to all age groups. Sometimes it seems that is
perhaps the major cause of so much evil in the world. Some under 25
year olds are able to resist it. Some seem able to make the righteous
choice. You are free to feel that those in iraq have no responsibility
for their actions because they are young and duped. You are free to
thank them and to feel they have earned honor for their service to this
country. I don't feel that way.


> >
> > i think the reason the Iraqi vets are being
> > > > > treated so differently is because the country is ashamed and has
> > > > > learned a lesson thru your suffering and that of the other nam vets.
> > > > > lesson being ... you can protest an abhorent war without blaming the
> > > > > kids who are forced to fight it. thank you for your sacrifice and
> > > > > service, spiritrising.
> >
> > While I can understand the difficulties presented by the choices
> > available and sympathise with the situation a person finds themself
> > confronted by, I see no reason to thank someone for being fooled by a
> > con to do wrong.
>
> hmmmm let me get this straight. if someOne is conned into believing
> something they are to blame for being conned. following that line of
> reasoning when a child is conned getting into the car of a pedophile
> that child is to blame for getting raped.
>
> Those in Vietnam and in Iraq were and are not
> > performing a service though they may have been fooled into believing
> > they are. Its sad to see someone fooled but that doesn't make it a
> > service. What exact service would you thank a returning Iraq vet for?
> > Thank you for believing the lies of the government? Though the
> > information was not very difficult to find, thank you for not bothering
> > to educate yourself?
>
> um ... when GW and his goons were gearing up for the war on Iraq where
> exactly was this accurate info to be found?

Silly to post this when you know the answer. Did you or did you not
find that information yourself? Did you accept the propaganda or did
you find alternative sources of information? Are you telling me that
the computer literate 18 year olds of today were incapable of doing
what I assume you did and I did? This teen who could rattle off the
statistics of his favorite football team and its major players for the
last 20 years is intellectually incapable of understanding the last 20
years of america's interactions with Iraq? This teen who could give you
the biographical details of his favorite rock stars and memorize the
lyrics of 20 or more songs is incapable of finding the bilgrapical
details of Saddam Hussein and GW Bush, or understanding the functioning
of out government. Or did they decide learning about Eminem was more
important than learning about the people they were about to kill? I
recognize the difficulty of the choice thrust upon the young. I
sympathize and I'm grateful that I was never confronted with that
choice. Though I was in the army durning the years of the Iranian
hostage situation and all of us considered the very real possibility
that we would be mobalized. I knew what my choice would be but I wonder
if I would have had the courage to follow through. Fate, karma, or just
bad luck thrust upon us all choices. Some of us are faced with choices
that call upon us to nickle and dime our soul away. Others are faced
with starker choices. But whatever the choice karma thrusts upon us we
are responsible for the choice we make and the path we walk.


>
> Thank you for the part you played in killing
> > 100,000 innocent Iraqis and the hundreds of thousand more that will
> > suffer or die from depleated uranium caused cancers and birth defects?
>
> i get the impression that once youre in the middle of the mess you're
> looking out for your survival and the survival of your fellow soldiers
> and the military conditioning you've received undermines any moral code
> your mama instilled. but that doesnt matter does it? the state of
> mind of the individual soldier isnt the point. is it? how young the
> mind, how deeply brainwashed and conditioned isnt up for consideration.
> is it? shoulda known better than to join the National Guard (weekend
> warriors) or join the military (in the hopes of an education)in the
> first place. tsk tsk on those immoral poor kids who viewed the
> military as the only way out of their poverty.
>
> > I don't condenm
>
> seems like youre doing a pretty good job of it none the less.
>
>
>
> and I cannot absolve, each person must carry the burden
> > of their actions themselves. But I will not pretend that being duped
> > makes a wrong action good.
>
>
> did i say it did? but i don't blame the waitress for serving crappy
> food. i leave a tip anyway since she wasnt the one cooking.

If the waitress took your complaint to the cook and the cook told the
waitress to slap you around and the other employees egged her on would
you still blame the cook if she came out and beat you black and blue
for complaining?

>
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Its just not that simple. I don't condone or encourage throwing
> > > > tomatoes at vets. But responsibility for one's actions belongs to the
> > > > individual acting. No one gets a free pass for the mistakes they make,
> > > > not because they were young, not because someone, or the government,
> > > > told them to do it. We all carry with us the psychological burden of
> > > > our errors and theoritically, the karmic burden as well. Some were
> > > > faced with more difficult choices and carry a greater weight because of
> > > > it. But there's no escaping the responsibility for the choices we make.
> > >
> > >
> > > hmmm not sure what youre driving at here. the gov lies and young men
> > > are duped (or even drafted against their wills) into doing things they
> > > wouldve never normally done ... like kill a total stranger or get
> > > themselves killed in a firefight in some foreign country.
> >
> > Being duped makes murder OK? Is that just in war or is being duped a
> > defense for murder in any situation? Those who go to war carry a heavy
> > psychological and karmic burden. Being duped does not lift it from
> > their shoulders. Those who care to grow psychologically or spiritually
> > will realize that and find a way to deal with their mistakes, their
> > wrong actions. The rest will shunt it away in some corner of the
> > unconscious where it will cause other problems.
> >
> >
> > then they
> > > come home after having spent years in a state of fight or flight, been
> > > duped and misused by thier gov and find the very people they were made
> > > to believe they were fighting for are hurling insults and tomatoes at
> > > them. what kind of responsibilty are they suppose to take? how would
> > > that taking of responsibility manifest, exactly? what "free pass" is
> > > being expected or even asked for? i'm not trying to be
> > > confrontational. i truly dont understand your meaning.

.

Loading