Re: EA's "Project 10 Dollars"

On Feb 24, 11:31 pm, Tom <jimver...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Feb 24, 6:01 pm, The alMIGHTY N <natle...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Feb 23, 5:37 pm, "Tom" <no...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

"The alMIGHTY N" <natle...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in messagenews:864bdd21-a0e6-4e37-8f7d-921a61ecfcbf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

On Feb 22, 11:53 pm, Tom <jimver...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Feb 22, 7:37 pm, Doug Jacobs <djac...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Tom <no...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
No they do not lose money. They don't make money either, but there
is
no loss on their part. Once I own the game, the developer/publisher
is no longer part of the equation.

I disagree, they are losing money when games change hand through used
sales
of the games as that was a potential retail sale there. The worst
thing that
can happen is that, when you buy a game, the game has product key
that must
activate it online and then it is permanently tied to that person's
gamertag, then that would be an issue and I hope that never comes to
pass,
but that could be their solution. But, MS and game makers could
easily do
that. Look at Windows and Office products, they do that, so people
cannot
sell the systems used or make copies of them. How much money would MS
lose,
if I bought Windows and just I lend it out to everyone to install on
their
PCs to use without ever having to worry about activation or using the
same
product key over and over again?

True - companies are not making money on the 2nd hand market, but they
aren't
legally losing any, either. So long as each game sold through the
second
hand market was legal to begin with, it's like buying/selling used
books
or CDs.

It is legal to sell your copies of your software, it is illegal to
make copies of it, even if you're keeping the copies and then selling
the original.

It's quite legal to make copies of software. It's just not legal to
distribute them or keep them after distributing the original.ac

You didn't follow what I said.

I followed what you said. I just didn't follow what you *meant.* ;-)

The word "even" in there completely changes the meaning of the
statement.

I know it's legal to make copies for your
personal use (Fair Usage Rights or something along that line is what it is
called). If you read what I stated, I said that it is legal to make copies
but illegal to make copies than sell the original.

And yes, the console makers could very easily require an account and
issue
keys with each game that would require you to register that game with
your
account. In fact, Sony supposedly got a patent on such a system that
would actually bind a game disc to your physical console - meaning if
you
ever had to replace your PS3 (which I've had to do) your whole library
would become useless. DLC and games downloaded from Live Arcade are
already locked to your gamertag and console, making them impossible to
sell or lend through a second hand market. +

I hope they don't go this route, but as a gamer, I would probablhy
abide because of my love of playuing games. It is a chance they take
as it could adversely affect sales overall. I don't think they'll do
this as it is more subtle to impose the fees in the manor of which EA
is doing now on resold games.

On the PC, things like Steam have shown it's possible - and quite
profitable - to distribute entire, full-sized PC games. It really is
going
to only be a matter of time before the console market goes entirely
digital.
And when that happens, you can be sure you won't be able to buy or sell
used games as we do now.

Yep, that may be the case, but I would hope that the downlaod is tied
to the user account,and not the hardware. if it becomes the altter,
they will have no more customers if i have to pay for something twice
fom the same account.

That's the way Steam does it. I can install any game I've purchased
from the service to any machine I want so long as that machine has
Steam installed on it and is registered to my account.

Same way with EA purchased games, one needs to install the EA game installer
to use said games.

But until that day comes, console games are still physical items, and
arguably must still be held to the laws that govern physical items,
which
is why I think that ultimately these unwise schemes of EA and Sony will
fail - assuming that the market's backlash doesn't force these
companies
to scrap the whole plan entirely.

As for Windows, or other similar PC software, the actual disc is pretty
useless. There's nothing illegal about me taking a single Windows disc
and installing copy after copy after copy of Windows (or office, ...)
on
hundreds if not 1000s of machines. However, it all comes down to that
24
character key. Without that, the software won't work...at least, not
legally. Microsoft doesn't care if you use your neighbor's Windows CD
to
install on your computer - but try using his key and there'll be a
problem.

Actually, it is illegal to do that, or courts would have made product
activation illegal. The point of DRM and the copyright laws is to
prevent the very thing you mention here. Companies use this as a means
to stem the copying of software as opposed to litigating everyone who
violates it.

The point of product activation is to prevent a single key from being
used for multiple installations. I can use the same Windows disc to
install the operating system on any number of computers so long as I
have a unique product key for each computer.

But you have to purchase that product key, in case you didn't know that.

Well, duh. :-)

Your previous wording didn't indicate that understanding as your
statement about loading as many instances of Windows on thousands of
PCs was legal according to you, then illegal without the key. It is
illegal to load them without the key period, even if it cannot be used
because the key wasn't entered. Read the EULA regarding this, through
I disagree with some of the wording, if one agrees to it when they
click yes, then that's that as they say.

I didn't make a statement about loading Windows on thousands of PCs;
Doug did that. I simply explained to you why you were wrong in stating
that what Doug described was illegal.

The fact of the matter is that you can use one single Windows
installation disc to install the Windows operating system on as many
computers as you want so long as you have a unique product key for
each of those installations. If you want to install Windows on a
thousand PCs, you need a thousand product keys.

The "Well, duh" comment was because it's obvious that Microsoft's not
giving away product keys for free to everyone and anyone. :-)

If you still think I stated something else somewhere, please include
the exact quote so I can at least know what I'm being "accused" of,
LOL.

What would be the point of having all these unique keys if they just
gave them away for free. *Someone's* got to supply the rolls of
hundred dollar bills that Bill Gates wipes his ass with. :-)

So,
you are purchasing, in essence, another copy of Windows. You don't get to
use the same copy or product key to use as many times as you wish, you have
to make purchases for each install.

Well, you're not really purchasing another copy of Windows. When
someone refers to "their copy of <so and so software>," they're likely
referring to the disc they bought. If you sell your Windows product
key to someone but kept the install disc, you're probably not going to
say you sold "your copy of Windows."

You are technically purchasing another copy of windows when you
purchase another product key. For example, if you bought three keys,
but only have one physical disc, you have three instances of Windows
that can be legally (by the terms of the EULA) used. The data for the
OS on the physical disc is all the same there is no PK tied to one
individual disc. You can use the same disc to load on as many PCs as
you please as long as you have a separately purchased PK for each
installation. You can even use a copied physical disc of windows and
it is perfectly fine, as long as you purchased the key. However, it is
more expensive to purchase a key than it is to buy the actual boxed
retail version of Windows.

Like I said, it's just a matter of terminology. Most people refer to
the actual discs when they talk about a "copy of software." If you say
you "sold your copy of Modern Warfare 2," your mindset is that you
sold the actual disc itself... never are you thinking that you sold
someone the installation on your PC or console and in fact you can
sell your copy of a game while still having it installed... it's not
legal but it's possible.

"Copy" in common usage refers to the discs and not the code that is
sitting on your hard drive, especially in the context of how it's
being used in this discussion.

I challenge you to find someone *else* who, after having just
purchased a product key, says, "I just bought another copy of
Windows." ;-)

In any case, Microsoft agrees. Here's what their website had to say
about obtaining a new product key:

"To obtain a new genuine Windows 7 product key, you'll need to buy an
additional copy of the same edition of Windows 7, which contains a
product key that you can use."

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows7/Get-a-new-Windows-product-key

The "copy" refers to the physical object you purchase whereas the
product key is just a code used to allow you to install an instance of
the software using the copy.

And apparently it costs the same to get a product key and the discs
because Microsoft doesn't seem to sell just product keys.

It's just a matter of terminology, of course, but in this case Doug
specifically referred to the CD itself. He was correct that Microsoft
doesn't really care about the copy of the Windows install disc sitting
in the box so much as the product key on that little certificate
sitting alongside.

It ensures this by grabbing information from multiple hardware
components in the computer and hashing that together with the product
key to create a unique installation identifier. Note that if you make
major changes to your hardware configuration, you need to reactivate
since the system suspects that the product may have been installed on
a new machine.

Yes, without getting into the technical details of the installation process,
that's how it works, but that isn't what we were defining here.

It's just correlating information to further describe why Doug was
correct in stating that it's not the disc but the key. The individual
disc you use is irrelevant.

Technically, there should be no reason why I cannot transfer my license
key to you. For instance, say I have XP on an old computer and now
I've
bought a new one with Windows7. I can sell you my old hardware, and
there's no reason why I shouldn't be able to sell you my old licenses
as
well. The reason it isn't do-able is because no one's gotten up and
taken
Microsoft to court about it. Same with all the PC game publishers as
well, yet for some reason, it's almsot as if it's illegal to sell or
lend
a PC game even though according to the laws regarding first sale, it's
not.

You can absolutely transfer windows from one person to the other. If
you buy a retail version of Windows (or software), it is in essence
tied to the seller and on the hardware it was installed. If you remove
it from your hardware, it can be sold and used on the next hardware
for anyone who wants to buy it. OEM is a different story, it is tied
to the first hardware on which it is installed and not transferable.
That is why it it typically cheaper (mostly by half the price) than
retail.

As far as I know, it is legal to sell my game according to the EULA,
but only one transfer is legal under that EULA. Whether that is, by
law, enforceable remains to be seen. it's jsut that there is no one
willing to spend the money litigating a company to challenge this and
most companies won't litigate individuals out of costs.

It's all part of the trend to change this and make media into a
neverending rental, with no true ownership, no resales.

Well, as of now we own the games, but if they went that route, I
would stop
gaming because it wouldn't worth the time. But, I see no problem with
them
trying to make back a little money from used game sales, since they
are not
getting their licensing share as they do from actual retail sales.

This is already happening on the PC with services like Steam, and
they've
been relatively successful. This

...

read more »

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