Re: OT: PSN may start featuring $40 game downloads

On Feb 25, 12:47 pm, Doug Jacobs <djac...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
The alMIGHTY N <natle...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Look at all the resources Sony
has sunk into Home. ?Imagine if they'd used those resources fixing the PS2
emulation software for the PS3, or creating better graphics libraries for
developers?

What does one have to do with the other?

Just saying that I'd rather see Sony putting their effort into something
that would actually make the PS3 better, instead of adding yet another
badly implemented service no one uses, like Home.

I can't think of much inherently bad about the console itself. They
could put backwards compatibility back in but that would only help
people buying new systems. This download service is technically
available to all PS3 owners.

I don't think Steam limits the number of times you can redownload. ?
However you can only have one active login at a time, so even if you put
your account onto multiple machines, only one of them could be used at any
one time.

So if you had one person living in New York and one person living in
California, the person in California would be able to use the same
account after the person in New York has gone to bed? LOL

I'm not entirely sure, but there doesn't seem to be any restriction
against that - again so long as only one person is using the account at a
time. That makes sense from a licensing point of view anyways as this is
no different than buying a game, then lending it, in its entirity, to a
friend. One license was purchased, and only one license remains in use.
No harm, no foul.

As far as I can tell, Microsoft does not impose a limit on redownloads
but I guess that's the advantage to having such a closed and
restricted system.

With Microsoft, the download is locked to the account that downloaded, and
the primary console. ?If you replace your hard drive, or get a new 360,
you can tell Microsoft you've changed your primary console, so the
downloads will be available to any user on that console. ?Otherwise, only
the account that downloaded the content can use it if and only if they're
logged into Live.

If downloads are "available to any user on that console," then they
are not locked to the account but to the console, contrary to your
first sentence in the paragraph.

It's both, as folks who have replaced their 360 or hard drive have found
out.

I'm quite certain that the downloads are locked to the account. I have
3 profiles on my console but only my main profile can utilize
downloaded content. Whether I have to be logged into Live only depends
on which of my two consoles I'm using. If my hard drive is attached to
my original repaired unit, I can use the content whether I'm logged on
or not. If my hard drive is attached to my new unit, I can use the
content only when I'm logged on. In neither case can my secondary
profiles use the content.

I only have 1 360, and I have 3 different profiles on it. All 3 can use
the content that my primary profile has paid for. This allows my wife and
mother-in-law to play Boogie Bunnies and save their progress separately.

However, if I bought a 2nd 360, and recrated the same accounts on it, only
my account could use that downloaded content, and only if I was logged
in.

If your first paragraph is indeed true, then your wife and mother-in-
law would also be able to play Boogie Bunnies on your second console
if you transfer the licenses, after which none of you would be able to
play Boogie Bunnies on your original console without being logged into
Live.

So it's locked to both the 360 you downloaded onto, as well as the account
that paid for the download.

That's either/or. If it was locked to both, your wife and mother-in-
law wouldn't be able to play on any console.

In any case, that doesn't speak to whether there is an ultimate limit
to the number of times you can download a specific piece of paid
content.

As far as I know, there is no limit with Live on how many times you can
redownload content you paid for - and honestly, why should there be?

There shouldn't so long as you can furnish proof that you paid for it
when redownloading.

At the same time, however, Xbox Original games aren't for sale in most
stores anymore, and at $10 a title, they're competitively priced with most
used titles you'll find at Gamestop.

You were speaking about buying used games. Most Xbox Original games
are available for purchase used in GameStop stores.

Find them at Gamestop, yes. Find them for $10 or less, no.

When Xbox Originals were first arriving, I was one of the only people
who thought it was an okay idea. Numerous people were saying they
could find these games used at GameStop stores for less than $10 even
back then.

As far as being able to buy used games for $40 or less from GameStop,
that's true only for the older releases or the less popular releases.
Call of Duty 4 still goes for $44 and new releases go for $50-55 used.
The savings is generally only $5-10 for the first year or so.

Not so, if you use Gamestop's coupons and Edge Card.

You're grasping at straws now. Under that mindset, you should be
praising the Playstation 3 for being as cheap as a Wii and cheaper
than a Premium 360 since if you sign up for a Sony card, which you
don't even have to pay for like the Edge Card, you can get one for
$250.

First of all, that offer ended.

And who's to say that it won't come back? It's irrelevant to the
people setting prices for merchandise, though.

Second, Sony is trying to screw me over by claiming I didn't do the offer
right, even though I called their customer support several times to
confirm. I'm still fighting it, but it seems Sony is intent on screwing
me out of the $150. I have no idea how many others they also screwed.

Irrelevant. It just sounds like you're bitter towards Sony and that's
clouding your judgment.

I can't take the PS3 back now, but had I known Sony would renege on the
terms of their deal like this I wouldn't have gotten another credit card
and would have just bought the PS3 elsewhere.

F*ck Sony.

Finally, even if you ignore Gamestop entirely, there's still eBay, Gamefly,
Craigslist, your friends... There's plenty of places to get games way
cheaper than retail legitimately.

And you're still welcome to use any of those avenues. After shipping,
the prices on relatively recent used games is not cheaper than $40 on
eBay unless it's a crap game that nobody wants. I can still get $40
for Call of Duty 4 (which doesn't include shipping for the buyer)!

Same with Craig's List. Sometimes the prices there are higher than
eBay!

GameFly? That's a rental service. Maybe they sell used games but it's
not going to be any better than GameStop or Blockbuster.

While you won't be
able to get a recently released game (e.g. Street Fighter 4) used on
release day, or even for a few weeks or months after release, it's quite
easy to save between 30-50% on a used game compared to the game's current
new price.

Way down the line, sure. You won't be getting 50% off a used copy of
any game within the first half-year or so, though, so this doesn't
help people who want to play the game *now.*

Your argument is based off the assumption that any given person is
willing to wait a half-year to a year to save this kind of money.

It depends. It's really not that hard to save 30-40%. It all depends on
how soon used copies start hitting the shelves. I was seeing used copies
of Halo3 by January. Yeah, it was $55 used compared to $60 new, but pile
on the coupons and you could get it for around $40 with no problems.

Pile on the coupons? You can only use one coupon at a time. Even if
you get 20% off, that's still $44.

And not everyone has a local GameStop and not everyone wants to handle
something that who knows how many and what people touched.

The bottom line is that people will benefit from this service so it is
not in any way a "horrible" idea.

If
that was too much for you, there's still eBay, etc.

Where it was going for $55 used by January and you had to pay shipping
*and wait* to boot.

Can you get the game on release day for that price? No. You're right
that if you want it *now* you're pretty much stuck paying full price, or
maybe getting a few bucks off when your local Frys (if you have one) gets
them. However, most folks don't need to get the game *now* and if you can
wait - even just a few weeks - you can at least get a used copy for $50 with
your edge card.

If I'm a person who wants to play on launch day (like millions of
gamers did when Gears of War 2 came out), a $40 alternative could be
useful. The whole problem with your argument is you keep coming up
with all these other scenarios why it may not be beneficial to the
consumer and ignoring the very obvious scenarios where it would be.

The best you can say is that you don't like the idea and don't feel
it's useful to you, but saying it's a horrible idea is just flat out
wrong.

I haven't had a problem finding original game cases with documentation in
near-mint or very-good condition.

If you go through every used game in all the GameStop, EBGames and
Software Etc. stores in your area, I guarantee you that the
overwhelming majority of them will not be in even very good condition
and many will not have manuals or even the cover inserts.

Perhaps you've been lucky (I'm just picky) but don't for once assume
that what you've experienced is the norm.

Well, it does depend on the store. First, avoid the malls.

Malls are a mixed bag. All of the used copies I've purchased came from
mall stores. I just had to spend some time looking around.

The clerks
can barely keep the store together, much less fix the displays after wave
after wave of little kids maul everything. And since it's usually kids
who trade stuff in at the malls, the quality tends to be lower overall -
missing cases, manuals, scratched discs, etc.

I don't know about that. I see many more adults trading in games. When
I see kids buying games, they're dragging their parents to buy them a
new one and the parents oblige just so they can get out of there and
do their own thing.

The ones in strip malls tend to be less crazy so you can actually find
stuff, or at least have the clerks help you. There's 3 stores near me
that tend to have inventory that's in pretty good shape, at least most
of the time. I haven't had problems finding cases and manuals that
would be considered to be in near-mint or very good condition. A few
even had the registration card.

You're only talking about games that you were actually looking for.
When I look at used games, I'm usually just browsing because I'm bored
and consistently, in every GameStop I've ever been in, the generic
GameStop cases far outnumber the original game cases.

Most people don't care enough to take care of their crap. Few people
are really that anal about the condition of their games.

You forget, if I have a physical copy of a game, I can play that game so
long as I have a working console. ?I don't need a connection to the
internet. ?I don't even need to be using the same console - I can take the
game to my friend's house and play there.

a) That's why you'll be paying less for it.
b) How many people these days take games over to their friends' house
to play?

I actually lend/borrow games between friends quite a bit. Can't do that
with a digital copy.

I haven't done that since I was in high school. I'm sure there are
quite a few people who are in that boat so it wouldn't even matter to
them.

The beauty of this service is that if you don't need it, you don't
have to use it. With a more grounded take on things, people can do as
they please. If you had your way, everyone would have to do things
your way.

While I can understand paying less for the digital copy, the price is
still too high in my opinion. It should be $30 at most. Yes, a 50%
savings.

You're welcome to your opinion. I sure wouldn't mind paying less for
games but that doesn't mean $40 is too high. The beauty of it is that
you can act on your opinion and simply not buy the game. That doesn't
mean it's not good for everyone, though.

Ultimately, I think relatively few people will buy this way. Then, it
will be up to Sony to decide whether the benefit to their finances is
worth it.

I don't deal with other download services (like the one Gamestop has) for
the same reason. They're charging $30 for a PC game that's $40 retail.
Uh, no thanks. I'll pay the $10 extra for a hardcopy. Or just wait a few
months when the retail price drops to $30 or even $25, meanwhile the
download price stays the same...makes no sense to me there.

The thing you're not getting is that plenty of people don't feel the
same way as you do. Unlike with a feature of a console, this doesn't
cost people who don't care anything.

With a digital copy, it's pretty much stuck on that console, and may not
even work if Sony is stupid and requires me to be logged into PSN for it
to work.

Who knows how it's going to work? Maybe they'll institute some sort of
method similar to Xbox Live where the download is tied to the console.
You don't know so to badmouth a concept that hasn't yet been realized
or elaborated based on your speculation is somewhat ridiculous.

True true, need more details about this.

As for "just the disc/cart" folks, sure, if I was looking for an old or
rare game, and I only cared about being able to play the game, that would
be fine. ?However, in Gamestop's case, you don't get any discount for a
game that's lacking its original case and/or documentation. ?If the game
costs, say, $35 used, ALL copies - regardless of their condition - are $35.

Who said anything about GameStop? Reread that paragraph.

My point is that prices on eBay will vary depending on the item. The same
game sold as just-the-disc item vs. one that's like-new, with its original
case and manual, are going to end up selling for different prices. Not so
in Gamestop. And if it was a rare or hard-to-find item, I'd be willing to
pay more even if it was just-the-disc.

This is why I check the condition of the case, manual and the disc before
purchasing. ?I might as well get the best copy for my cash, right? ?
(personally, I wish Gamestop WOULD give you an additional discount for
games that don't have their right case or docs...)

GameStop should price differently depending on how complete the trade-
in is. However, then people would demand different pricing based on
the grade of the whole package. Then you get the issue of subjective
grading since you can't realistically expect some $10-an-hour clerk to
become an expert on what's very good and what's near mint.

Just make it easy. $X for just-the-disc (no case, no manual), $Y for disc
and case, or disc and manual and $Z for the complete package, where $X <
$Y < $Z.

I realize that. I noted that the problem with adopting this is that
then people start demanding different pricing for different grades. If
you have a game with both the case slip and the manual but both are in
crappy condition, should it really cost more than a game with just the
manual but the manual is in mint condition? Why?

Problem is Gamestop would either start charging more for $Y and
$Z, or think they'd lose too much money from folks who would just want the
disc, leaving the store with extra cases and manuals they couldn't get rid.

It's simple - Sony is offering this as an option for people who are
willing to give up the physical copy and the benefits that go with it
for a digital download that is $20 less than the MSRP.

That you and the relatively few people who have the same purchasing
mindset as you are not going to benefit from this alternative does not
mean that it is a horrible idea. There are plenty of people who will
benefit from it and the existence of such an option is not going to
affect anyone who isn't interested in any way, negative or not, so
what's the problem?

I have a number of concerns, as I've outlined. The big ones come down to
price (too high) and licensing restrictions.

Neither of which are universal issues. And, as I've stated again and
again, since you're not harmed by the existence of this feature, you
really don't have much standing to complain about it being offered to
the people who would benefit from it.

The likelihood that they'll just kill the availability of a download
is slim to none. What paid download on Xbox Live have you seen
disappear? The only piece of content I have that cannot be
redownloaded is the free HD South Park episode since HD DVD is gone
(and it was meant to celebrate the format).

A number of XBox Live Arcade titles have been taken down. Microsoft says
this was because of poor sales, but regardless of the reason, it's
possible that there are people who have content on their 360 that could
not be replaced if they had to redownload it.

Which ones? If there are any, they're few and far between. I see
plenty of crap games that don't sell well still up there.

By this logic, the NXE feature of installing games is useless since
the overwhelming majority of 360 owners either have no hard drive or
just the 20GB hard drive, which realistically could only store 1-2
games.

But installing on the 360 isn't a requirement.

That's irrelevant. Your logic states that because most people won't
benefit from this service, the entire concept is bad. By that logic,
the installation feature is bad because most people won't benefit from
it. In other words, the percentage that will benefit shouldn't be
offered the service simply because nobody else can use it, never mind
that those who can't use it aren't harmed in any way by its existence.

I think Sony will end up wasting their time and resources on offering a
poorly thought out service that no one is really going to be interested in
using for one reason or another.

The fact is that plenty of people will use it. Definitely not a
majority but there is a market for this sort of thing or they wouldn't
even bother trying it in the first place.

The problem with your point of view is that when you say "no one," you
really just mean *YOU.* If you want to argue that the service won't be
popular and that it's not going to be the next best thing since sliced
bread, sure, I'll agree with you there.

Your continued insistence that your disapproval makes this a
"horrible" idea, though, is inane.

That's why I made the comparison to
Home. Huge effort for something that's, if you ask me, poorly implemented
and serves no real purpose.

It's pointless but that doesn't make it a horrible idea. Its
implementation is another story - you haven't a clue about how this
service will be implemented so you can't Home as a parallel argument
in this way.

Trying too hard? ?Hardly. (heh)

The concept of digital downloads has been kicked around for the PC for
years, and had to deal with all of the issues (and more, I'm sure) that I
listed.

Actually, PC games have never had to deal with your key issue, which
is the used games market at GameStop. GameStop doesn't sell used PC
games and probably never will.

True. For some reason, it's technically illegal to sell used PC games due
to the messed up verbage in the EULA and the DMCA. Then again, PC games
tend to drop in price much more rapidly, not to mention the fact that the
average price for a new PC game is less than that of the same game on the
console.

Because the PC hardcore gaming market is drying up.

If Sony is really serious about this, I really hope they take a careful
look at those services that are doing this - and are successful at doing
it - rather than simply plowing ahead and recreating every mistake that's
been made over the past 10 years.

Mistakes that haven't prevented the services from being relatively
successful.

No, however if you're going to enter into a market where there are already
similar services or competitors in place, you'd do well to study them and
learn from their mistakes.

There are no competitors in this particular market. Nobody else will
sell digital downloads of Playstation 3 games.

Sony, meanwhile, seems pretty determined to repeat these mistakes for
themself, instead of trying to learn from what others have tried to do.

Considering you have absolutely no data to support this, it's a
laughable claim at best.

Price and backup/redownloading are the two biggest issues I see here.

Steam's pricing structure isn't an impediment to the multitude of
people who use it. Apparently, redownloading hasn't been a problem,
either.

Again, Steam has been relatively well thought out, and has responded to
the concerns of their users. Hence, it's become quite sucessful.

Steam had its fair share of problems early on. What you see now is the
result of many years of work. Sony may not even offer the service and
it's not available yet so how can you make any comparison?

Lame argument at best.

This is why I say that if Sony is serious about a download type service,
they would do well to see how Steam has dealt with various issues and at
least consider those when designing their own system.

And how do you know they're not? Again, you're just trying to find
faults because of your bias against Sony. This is classic fanboi
behavior.
.

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