Re: Jim Rice - Hall of Fame


"Robert P Holley" <holleyrp@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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On Jan 13, 5:03 pm, "Black Knight" <n...@xxxxxxx> wrote:
"Robert P Holley" <holle...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in
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On Jan 13, 8:53 am, "Black Knight" <n...@xxxxxxx> wrote:

"Robert P Holley" <holle...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in
messagenews:4a0f3ce7-4367-45b9-b3f6-347b3b7326df@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Are you kidding me? The HoF standards continue to drop with this
induction.

His numbers don't lie.
Exactly, which is why he is undeserving. His career OPS+ is only 128.

Fred Lynn's was 129 and he played a more demanding defensive position.

Wow. Your basing your whole argument on one stat vs. one other player.

My whole argument? That was one little example of how he isn't worthy
by comparing him to a contemporary and a teammate, one teammater who
didn't get a sniff at the HoF. I've proved it even more by showing you
how he didn't get on base a lot, how he was GIDP machine and how he
was average to below average away from Fenway.

He was feared eh? So was David Ortiz a few years ago, does that make

him a HoFer. Besides, if he was so feared you'd think he'd lead the
league in IBB or his career IBB would be off the charts but that's not
the case. He only cracked the top ten in IBB three times in his
career. He also finished behind other such "feared" hitters in career
IBB as Mike Greenwell and Lou Pinella.

You dimbulb. Look who he had around him. He didn't walk a lot b/c picthers
had to pitch to him, with the other sluggers/hitters on the team,</i>

Huh? Plenty of HoF hitter are able to draw walks even with great
hitter behind them. That's what makes them HoF hitters. Henderson
walked 99 times in 1985 with Mattingly behind him. Do you think
pitchers wanted to purposely put him on first base with a free pass
with one of the top hitters in the game (at the time) coming up to the
plate?

Fairly recent inductees like Schmidt, Boggs, Eddie Murray, Brett,
Reggie Jackson, Bench, Yaz, Stargell were able to do it. Even old
timers like Aaron, Mays, Mantle, Williams, Ruth, and Gehrig did it.

Want a recent example? Manny Ramirez. He always was able to draw walks
even while being in a great lineup with both Cleveland and Boston.
Same for A-Rod.

They understood that the worst thing to do in baseball was to create
an out and that drawing a walk was valuable to the team. For whatever
reason Rice didn't understand this and thus wasn't as valuable as his
baseball card numbers suggest.

like
Yastrzemski, Lynn, Fisk, Evans, Armas, Boggs, Baylor, etc etc. We was
prone
to the K too, which is why he was pitched to. But how many 100+ K's
players do you know in that era who hit 200+ hits and had 100+ RBI's in
multiple seasons. Mike Greenwell btw, was NEVER a feared hitter.
Respected, maybe, but certainly not feared.

Exactly. That was my point. Greenwell wasn't a feared hitter but he
drew more IBB than the supposely more feared hitter from the late 70s
to the early 80s. My point was, that to claim Rice was feared is a
silly assumption and isn't backed by any facts.

He was a very good hitter and great for three years (77-79) but as a

career he just isn't HoF worthy.

Have you seen his home/away splits? Away from home his average was 43

pts lower, his SLG was 44 points lower and his OPS was 131 lower.
Basically away from Fenway he was an average to below average hitter.
Not very HoF worthy to me.

Plus he finished in the top ten for GIDP eleven times. He finished in

the top ten for Outs four times and lead the league twice.

Yep, he was known for it. He also was in the top ten for GWRBI 4 times.
Injuries prevented more times than that. I know its not a counted stat,
but
should be considered - it shows a clutch performer.

Clutch? Are you claiming that not only was he the most feared hitter
of his era he is the most clutch? And how do you qualitively(sp)
measure that? Using baseball-reference it seems he wasn't very
"clutch" at all and just average.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/bsplit.cgi?n1=riceji01

With 2-out and RISP he only slugged .414 for his career. His career
slugging percentage in the 8th inning? Only .456. In the 9th inning?
Even worse at .420.

I've seen him play and
he hit the ball as far and as hard as other HOFer.

I saw him play too and while that's impressive, but doesn't make him
HoF worthy.

Just because his career
didn't last as long, or reach certain 'milestones' doesn't mean someone
like
him doesn't belong.

I'm ok with other players getting in with shortened careers but only
if they display dominance in those years. Rice only had 3 (maybe 4)
dominant years, couple that with the lack of counting stats (which I'm
not a big fan of anyway) he really doesn't belong in the HoF. He's was
no better in his day than say Albert Belle was in his, but you don't
hear people takling about Belle as a HoFer.


First of all, I apologize for the name calling (re: dimbulb). Its not like
me at all. I just get a little defensive sometimes. Anyways, whatever
stats and reasons you can think of for him to not be in the HoF, that's
fine. He's in the HoF whether or not you or anyone else think he shouldn't
be. Time to move on.


.

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