Re: Is Sirius available in Mr. Bean cars?


lab~rat >:-) <chase@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 13:53:50 GMT, "Bill Reid"
<hormelfree@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> puked:
lab~rat >:-) <chase@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 00:35:10 GMT, "Bill Reid"
<hormelfree@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> puked:
lab~rat >:-) <chase@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 19:29:24 -0000, interested001@xxxxxxxxx puked:
On Jun 18, 10:07 am, "Halsted Quinn" <H...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

I've noticed that there are a lot of people out there with a
disdain
for efficient cars. For example, if I were to say "I hear
Volkswagen
is coming out with a hybrid that will get over 70 mpg", some people
would say "wow, that's great!" and ask for more details. But that
same statement would send others into, bascially, a temper tantrum.

Can anyone help me to understand this phenomenon?

Let me field this one. It's entirely a matter of horsepower and
torque.

Zat so?

People like me that enjoy performance cars define performance by the
above mentioned criteria. Generally, but not completely, these
hybrid
efficient cars end up being long on hype, short on actually
performing
as stated, and even shorter on performing in the hp & torque
category.

OK, what about diesel cars? "Car&Driver" notoriously tested
two high-end BMW sports sedans, identical except one car had
a diesel engine, the other had a gasoline engine.

So they were virtually identical overall in performance, BUT the
diesel got almost 45% better fuel mileage in their test loop.

So, would you drive a diesel "performance" car? (One of the
editors in a sidebar said he would never get one no matter how
well they performed because he liked the SOUND of a gasoline
engine better.)

I would get neither. I hate BMWs, they never came up with a body
style I liked and I don't like the convertibles.

OK, so it's not ALL about "horsepower and torque" for you...fine,
you're actually human, though you try to hide behind a rodent handle...

No, you changed the parameters of the discussion. We were talking
about hybrids and Smart cars. BMWs are more of a comparison of
standard vehicle.

Well, yeah, I just wanted to see how truly you believed your
own statement about "it's entirely about horsepower and torque"
for people that "enjoy performance cars". I found this statement
remarkable, since I my own self like "performance cars" (maybe
with a slightly different definition of "performance"), but it is
NOT "entirely about horsepower and torque" or any simple
set of statistics like that for ME...

If they were clean I imagine I'd prefer the one that
was quicker off the line as I doubt I'd test that top end more than 8
or 9 times...

You like the "head snap" of big American iron, then? Bores the
hell out of me, I like BMWs (though have never owned one) for
their precision handling and high-speed performance and rock-solid
stable cruising. The problem with getting off the line quickly is
that it's a very short-lived thrill: OK, I just "laid a patch", now
what?

First, I live in S. Florida where there are very few curves, so
straight line acceleration is where I have my fun. In addition, the
ability to out power most other vehicles in traffic is a significant
factor. I have the choice of waiting it out or passing it, and seldom
do I have to worry about being out-passed.

Did you see my anecdote about seeing the "SMART" car
weaving in and out of traffic at about double the speed of
all the other cars on the road? And the end of the story
was, he got run over by a Hummer! (not really...)

The thrill lies in driving 60 mph and popping up to 90 in seconds...

Well, there's something to be said for that...I too value "mid-range"
performance my own self...

If tomorrow someone came up with something that could completely
replace gas, was generated from nowhere,

Wow, what is this, perpetual motion fuel, or what?

The point being, a renewable resource.

How about "bio-diesel"?

One of many ideas, but one I imagine won't be around in 50 years.

Actually, it may be one of the few ideas around in 50 years, if people
still want to drive cars, and there hasn't been a technological breakthrough
otherwise...

and could easily be pumped
into existing cars with little or no modification,

That's "bio-diesel"...at least if you already have a diesel car...

Right. But how about a synthetic gasoline. One that you can dial in
the octane as needed, made from garbage. The problem with a lot of
new ideas in fuel is the infrastructure required to bring them to the
public. I mean, we can't retrofit every car to diesel, the natural
gas thing is interesting, but is non-renewable.

Well, most gas stations have a diesel pump already, though
effectively re-formulation has eliminated diesel cars from the
American new car line-up this year (they make up almost
50% of European sales, though).

I'm not quite sure what "synthetic gasoline" is, but if it is
like "synthethic oil", it would be no solution for what many
predict is the gradual decline and eventual cessation of oil
production from the current "peak", which will cause massive
shortages and price rises in the future. "Octane" has been
"artificially" boosted for decades by additives, but "synthetic"
would imply a chemical re-arranging of the existing petroleum
molecules like in "synthetic" oil, and would probably imply
a similar giant price tag for that alone...

The answer, at least for now, lies somewhere in the middle of a major
restructuring of our fuel infrastructure and minor to no remodding of
our existing vehicles.

Yeah, here's the deal: you gotta change sumpin', or everything is
gonna be the same. Simple enough logic, right?

those people that
scoff at the hybrid scenario would be MUCH more impressed.

BTW, I personally think hybrids are crap.

You know what has even more low-end torque than a diesel engine?
An electric motor (by a country mile). The "Tesla" electric sports
car
allegedly goes from 0-60 in 4 seconds, making it one of the fastest
accelerating production cars on the planet. (Unfortunately, it only
has
a claimed top speed of 130mph.) Can your El Camino do that?
If not, will you be lining up for an electric car soon? (Even the
electric motor in the Toyota Prius has almost 300 lb-ft of torque,
maximum at STALL SPEED, 0 rpm!)

That Tesla goes for over 100k. It's not a true production car yet,
and in the event they do make it into true production (meaning you can
go down to the dealership and buy one for a reasonable price and have
them serviced locally) it would certainly be considered.

Hmmm, OK, we're moving in an interesting direction here...

The Elky is in a class by itself. You can't compare it to any car
made in the past 20 years since it's 40 years old. It has a 3 speed
that makes it terribly inefficient at cruising speed and low gears
that make for a fast shift throw.

The car is all about the marvelous mid-60's and is a total gas (pun
intended) to drive. Not to mention, it's my pickup. I use it for
Home Depot runs and whatnot.

As a "pick-up", it's majorly weak...it's just one step above a
Subaru Brat...in the not so marvelous mid-00ies soccer moms
drive 1-ton payloaders to pick up their press-on nails...

I don't know, it serves my purpose, 35 bags of mulch or a couple dozen
2x8s, chlorine for the water system, seats three across and some kids
in the bed for a trip to the neighborhood park.

So you ARE a soccer mom!!!

And don't forget the o>riginal hybrids that have been used for
over 50 years now exclusively in one particular vehicular application:
diesel-electric freight train locomotives. They are propelled
entirely
by four electric motors, with a combined total of something like
30,000 lb-ft of torque, again maximum at 0 rpm...

So is it really "entirely a matter of horsepower and torque"?

Yes. It is.

Uh, no it's not, not really, since apparently BMW couldn't ever
tempt you with any amount of horsepower and torque...

http://www.theautochannel.com/vehicles/new/reviews/2000/russ0029.html

My car outperforms the diesel BMW you cited, so now we're just talking
about style. And maybe some gas mileage, but numbers up, it's still
performance.

How about a Ruf Porsche Turbo or sumpin' like that...could you
handle going to 60 in less than three (3!) seconds? ARE YOU
MAN ENOUGH!?!??!!

It's a matter of where the maximum appear on their
respective curve.

Well, I kinda get the feeling that you might be willing to
consider something that sorta emulates the high load-end
torque and flatter high end of an old American V-8, and
as I pointed out, that would be more like a diesel or even
more so, an electric motor.

Put 'em both together, and you've got yourself a...you
guessed it, a "hybrid". But the current crop of hybrids I
also consider to be kind of lame and misleading and
poorly-designed and weak. They actually waste a lot of
weight, space, efficiency, and complexity by incorporating
a goofy CVT transmission to try to use both the electric
motor and the gasoline engine together to propel the
car at some times.

Let's just say if the new iterations of Camaros & Challengers are
hybrids with the numbers, I'd definitely be interested. If they make
ragtops as well.

Are there any ragtop hybrids?

Obviously, they could make them...doesn't sound like you're
really committed to "saving the planet", though, or even saving
a few pennies on gas (while spending thousands more on the initial
purchase price). Where are your priorities?

The funny thing is, they had to discontinue the Honda Accord
V-6 Hybrid due to lack of sales...thing had the same basic
performance as a standard Honda Accord V-6, but got a mere
40% better mileage, nobody wanted it.

What THEY want is the Toyota Prius, and many
speculate it is because it is some kind of new "status
symbol" that is instantly recognizable because of its
unique styling (and admittedly high mileage, 44-48mpg
in "real life"). I know round these parts, you MUST
drive a Prius or you're declasse...funny thing is, the
same asswipes that just had to drive frickin' gigantic
Hummers a few years ago are now the EXACT
same people who look down on you if you don't
drive a Prius...

A better, more fuel-efficient, more powerful, and flexible
design would be an update of the old diesel-electric locomotives
that have been hauling hundreds of tons of freight for decades.

Get rid of the transmission, and just use direct-drive electric
motor(s) to propel the car, with a fairly light "pluggable" battery

Ok, now, that throws up another flag. What if you like to row your
own with a stick shift?

You see, it's NOT "entirely about horsepower and torque",
it's about grabbing a throbbing knob, too! Sorry, transmissions
are unnecessary with super-powerful electric motors (unlike
the weak-ass inefficient internal combustion engines, which
require torque multiplication "help" to get and keep going),
and they consume 15-25% of your power. Even the
CVT transmission in the Prius is "shiftless" and "clutchless"
that seamlessly varies the torque multiplication over a
narrow 2:1 range or so...

Frankly, I got sick of shifting after the age of 20, and could
live with an "automatic" of some sort (but all my cars are still
manuals for various reasons)...maybe they could put some
little "paddle shifters" in YOUR hybrid that aren't connected
to anything, and you could play with them while you're
driving around making engine sounds with your mouth...

pack (about the weight of the transmission you've eliminated) allowing
about a 40-mile daily range, and a gasoline or diesel (preferably diesel
due to innately higher fuel efficiency) engine that is used ONLY
on long trips as an automatic on-demand electrical generator at
the maximally-efficient RPM and load range. You don't even
absolutely need a computer to control the thing, on-demand
generators have been in use in industrial settings and use
80-year-old technology...

Now this can be made one clean, very high overall mileage
vehicle (MUCH better than current hybrids), with as much
performance off the line as you could possibly want (remember,
we can easily get up to 800 lb-ft of torque at 0 rpm from very
small lightweight electric motors), but for me, I would miss the
sound of my beloved high-revving European engines as I accelerated,
and there would also almost certainly be some top end performance
penalty due to the inherent nature of electric motors (might only be
able to run at a sustained 120mph).

But here's a possible compensation: the possibility of designing
the ULTIMATE traction control system, by using computer control
of four direct-drive electric motor/generators, one for each
wheel.

If you wanted to "lay a patch", you couldn't, because
you'd just get the soundless maximum acceleration that your
tire size and grip would allow; we're talking easy sub-6 seconds
to 60 here in an "economy sedan". Perfect 4-wheel drive, drive
it right off the highway into a sand dune and keep right on going
up a 45 degree incline. Anti-lock braking so simple and perfect
you cut another 15 feet off your stopping distance from 60.

Traction control is pretty advanced now. In fact, my Camaro is
relatively dumb in this area, but you can't spin the tires with the
traction control on, nor can you accidently fishtail in the rain.

Yeah, but current traction control relies on a complicated set
of clutches and mechanical braking control that introduce many
points of failure and lack of precision...with the four-wheel
direct drive motor/generators under computer control, you
can seamlessly and precisely dole out torque all the way
from a simulated low-speed "differential lock" to crawl
over logs in the forest, then fly right onto slightly rain-soaked
freeway at high speed, and the only thing that varies is
the electrical power/load at the wheels with millisecond
precision, not a single clutch or friction surface or mechanical
device needed...simpler, cheaper, but even better.

In addition, you can lock up the car on wet pavement and it would
continue in a straight line. I imagine that more expensive luxury
vehicles could do more.

They can do some impressive stuff, but the point is, you could
have even better control in much cheaper cars, because you eliminate
lots of potentially unreliable and COSTLY mechanics...

I don't know about you, but THAT'S a hybrid I could be
interested in!

Well, we have the technology. It's a matter of economics.

Exactly. And it's the economics of the sunk capital costs of
the big auto companies, who don't want to abandon $billions
of dollars of transmission factories to create a cheaper vehicle
that might not sell, unless gas is suddenly like $15 a gallon
(which is probably going to happen anyway in a few years).

Remember, most of this is stuff that GM and GE have been
selling for decades to the railroads (if you took a diesel-electric
train locomotive and shrunk it down to the size of the average
car, it would get like 90mpg). So it's not exactly like they
don't know WHAT to do, it's just they don't WANT to
do it...now. It's just not the "GM way" to suddenly start
selling cheaper, better cars, and lay off thousands of
unneeded workers...they just like to lay off the workers
and sell more crap.

And you know as soon as they come out with performance hybrids,
motorheads would be coming out with alternate-wound motors,
performance cut motor magnets, etc.

Maybe...over the years, there really has been less and less
for people to "tinker" with in their cars, as technology has become
more advanced...though Tesla itself had to design it's own electric
motors that could wind to 13,000rpm and had a different
torque curve than the standard "off the shelf" form-factor
motors generally available, so there is some development
work to be done there...

And where are the nuclear cars? Now that would be cool...

Just remember, "Homer Simpson" would be the guy at
the garage servicing your nuk-cler power plank thingie...

Bah, never. The Haynes manual would just get a little more
complicated...

"Every manual written by performing a total melt-down."

---
William Ernest Reid



.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Is Sirius available in Mr. Bean cars?
    ... and even shorter on performing in the hp & torque category. ... diesel got almost 45% better fuel mileage in their test loop. ... would you drive a diesel "performance" car? ... An electric motor. ...
    (alt.fan.howard-stern)
  • Re: Is Sirius available in Mr. Bean cars?
    ... a diesel engine, the other had a gasoline engine. ... diesel got almost 45% better fuel mileage in their test loop. ... would you drive a diesel "performance" car? ... OK, so it's not ALL about "horsepower and torque" for you...fine, ...
    (alt.fan.howard-stern)
  • Re: Is Sirius available in Mr. Bean cars?
    ... and even shorter on performing in the hp & torque category. ... diesel got almost 45% better fuel mileage in their test loop. ... would you drive a diesel "performance" car? ... An electric motor. ...
    (alt.fan.howard-stern)
  • Re: Is Sirius available in Mr. Bean cars?
    ... and even shorter on performing in the hp & torque category. ... diesel got almost 45% better fuel mileage in their test loop. ... would you drive a diesel "performance" car? ... An electric motor. ...
    (alt.fan.howard-stern)
  • Re: Is Sirius available in Mr. Bean cars?
    ... for efficient cars. ... and even shorter on performing in the hp & torque category. ... diesel got almost 45% better fuel mileage in their test loop. ... An electric motor. ...
    (alt.fan.howard-stern)
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