Re: Leaving the Dursleys.


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> We KNOW that the secret for 12 Grimmaud place was that it was the
> headquarters of the OOP.
> But - Sirius says that there were other spells and enchantments that
made
> the house unplottable. That is what hid the house.
>
> I continue to believe that a Fidelius charm can only protect something
> that
> can be a secret - which is how it is presented as the secret keeping
> charm.
> The location of a house is unlikely to be a secret - at the very least
no
> Sirius' house. We know that Belatrix and Narcissa knew where it was -
> they
> were possible inheritors after Sirius died.
>
> What the spell CAN protect is the activity inside the house that did > not
> happen before the spell was cast - like hididng the Potters or the OOP
> meetings. Those things can be a secret.
>
> Look at it this way - if you could hide a house or buidling with a
> Fidelius - you could conceivably hide anythingyou wanted to from its
owner
> even. Imagine Harry and Hermione casting a spell that HID the Malfoy
> manor.
> Then Lucius, Narcissa, and Draco could not find their own home - I > don't
> think so. IF it was possible - any two wizards who could cast the > spell
> could wreak havoc on teh Wizarding world - by hiding the MOM
headquartes-
> or
> Hogwarts - or everybodys houses from view. THere would be no need for a
> war - why not hide the entire wizarding world from Voldemort? > (ALright -
> maybe it is not a powerful enough spell to do that - but you must catch
my
> meaning)
>
>

These are very good points.

We have a few examples of hidden buildings:
---
1 The Leaky Cauldron

Could only be seen by wizards or witches. It seem that all muggles could
not
see it at all and all wizards could.

Actually - that is not entirely true either.
THe LC is the entrance to Diagon Alley - and Hermione's parents were there
to get her supplies for school once. Obviously - parents of muggle borns -
who are muggles - can see the LC.




2 #12 Grimwald Place

No one, wizards or muggle could see it until they were told the secret.
Now
in this case it was DD, the secret keeper, who had to tell Harry [by
writing] before he could see it but it was made unplottable by the Blacks
not by DD. It appeared that it was the FC charm which made it not visible.

Actually - if your read the book again - you will find that NOT to be the
case.
Harry was given the note from DD before they left on their brooms.(it was o
the last page of the chapter as I recall of the book) He already KNEW the
secret BEFORE he arrived at 12 Grimmauld Place - and the house was still
hidden - so it was not the FC that hid the house.



3. Harry's old house AFTER the deaths of James and Lily

Was invisible to muggles but visible to wizards. There is also a memorial
to
the Potters nearby which wasn't hidden but looked like a war memorial to
muggles.

4. Hogwarts Castle

Seem to be like the potter's statue, not invisible but looked different to
muggles.
---

All these examples has the owner or caretaker doing the hiding. I think
that's why DD was concerned that Belatrix were possible inheritors after
Sirius died.

I agree - I still believe that you cannot hide a persons own things from
that person with an FC.
THe reason is obvious - those things cannot be a secret to the owner of them

I still believe an FC can only work on something that is capable of being a
secret. Both Narcissa and Belatrix had been at the Black house in their
youth - so its hidden location was NOT a secret to them - even if it was
unplottable to muggles. that is why I beleive that the "secret" was not the
location of the house - but the activity that was going on there -= it was
the OOP headquarters. that was capapbel of being a secret. AND - just like
the Potter residence - a person who was not in on the secret woudl not be
able to see the potters or the oop even if they looked directly through the
windows of the houses.


It might depend on how you phrase the spell. Previously, I'd been convinced by your arguments. However, it's absolutely clear from the last page of C11/first page of C12, OotP that Harry *couldn't* see 12GP until after he thought about what had been said on the paper he was given as they landed in the square just outside:

They were standing outside number eleven; [Harry] looked to the left and saw number ten; to the right, however, was number thirteen.
'Think about what you've just memorised,' said Lupin quietly.
Harry thought, and no sooner had he reached the part about number 12GP than a battered door emerged out of nowhere between numbers 11 and 13 ... it was as though an extra house had inflated, pushing those on either side out of its way.

Now it could be that the unplottable and invisibility spells on the house were linked to the FC so once you knew the secret you could also see the house, but that seems complex even for the Potterverse, and OotP doesn't say that. What it does say is that 12GP was definitely invisible to Harry until he "knew" the secret. Even just reading it wasn't enough, he had to internalise it, then it appeared.

So could it be that the FC to protect the Potters was phrased thus: "the Potters are hiding inside the house at [no. X, Y Street] in Godrics Hollow". Consequently, Voldy could go up to the house and look through the window and not see them.

However, if the FC had been phrased differently as "No. X, Y Street is the hiding place of the Potters", Voldy wouldn't even have been able to see the house, let alone look through a window.

It wouldn't affected that part of the story because Voldy knew the secret, whichever way it had been phrased, so he'd have found their hiding place regardless.

DaveD

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Secret Keeper
    ... And these effect two effect (hides you but not if the secret keeper ... "Unplottability" protects against someone who did'nt ... know the house from seeing the house, ... though she does not fall under the FC spell and knows about the house. ...
    (alt.fan.harry-potter)
  • Re: Fidelius Charm
    ... All we know is that once Sirius was dead - they had to move out. ... perfectly plain that he wants you to have the house, it is nevertheless possible that some spell or enchantment has been set upon the place to ensure that it cannot be owned by anyone other than a pureblood.” ... THe question on the Fidelius is what breaks the spell. ... Obviously - the spell was broken at the Potter Residence - even though the secret keeper was still alive. ...
    (alt.fan.harry-potter)
  • Re: Secret Keeper
    ... It's unplottable,so Muggles could never come and call..." ... father did,DD used that when added the FC spell to the ... hiding or the exact place but that the Potters were hiding at that place. ... The same goes for 12GP.The secret is not the exact location but that the OotP ...
    (alt.fan.harry-potter)
  • Re: Fidelius Charm
    ... protects a SECRET - and the house itself could not be a secret since ... Harry arrives, and notices the numbers skip by 1. ... That there's a different spell which will make a house invisible until ...
    (alt.fan.harry-potter)
  • Re: Fidelius Charm
    ... protects a SECRET - and the house itself could not be a secret since there were other not in on the spell who would have known where the house was. ... suggests that Harry did anything to get passed the extra protection. ...
    (alt.fan.harry-potter)