Re: OOTP



Ron Hunter wrote:
Thom Madura wrote:
Ron Hunter wrote:
Thom Madura wrote:
Drusilla wrote:
Toon escribió:
On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 08:38:55 -0800 (PST), Sirius Kase <SiriusKase@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

There is a difference in knowing where someone is hidden and knowing the SECRET of where they are hidden. Hagrid and Dumbeldore may have known the Potters where hiding in
GH but not been about to fiind them, whereas Peter, Voldymort, and probably Sirius could find them there. Hagrid knew where to go, but Sirius actually found Harry in the rubble and handed him over to Hagrid.

That was the whole point. Voldemrot could look through the
living room window and never find them. Even knowing they're hiding out at the house, he can't see them, because
it's a secret. As far as he's concerned, his info is wrong.

I think that explanation is kinda wrong. How can not seeing them although knowing they're there protect them? he can blow
up the house.

Though I still say the secret was only against V and the DE, so the Order had no problems at all finding the Potters.


Actually the explanation is pretty much what JKR has said all along. And while blowing up the house is certainly a possibility - how would Voldemort really know they were in there? They didn't have to be hiding there - obviously they could have been virtually anywhere else as well. They didn't even need to be together. I would think that the LAST place you
would expect them to hide would be in their own home. There
are some rooms at Hogwarts that would have been good choices -
as we know.

We KNOW that Dumbledore did not know the secret. He - and the other wizards - all believed that Sirius was the secret keeper - pretty much until Lupin realized that Wormtail was still alive from the map.

It would be easy for Sirius to appear to be the secret keeper. All it would require is for Peter to write the information on a slip of paper, and give it to Sirius, who could then show it to someone else. Note that this is how Harry was shown the headquarters of the OOTP by someone OTHER than Dumbledore (the secret keeper).

That is NOT how the fidelius works.

Only the secret keeper can pass the secret along. Once Peter told Sirius - he could not pass that on to another - whether by mouth or
paper. Only the secret keeper can do that. That IS IN Canon.


Sorry, but you are WRONG. Find the place where Harry is taken to 12 Grimmauld Place, and see who gave him the paper with the address on it.


No - I am not wrong

1 - Dumbledore was the secret Keeper for the order

2 - Only Dumbledore could inform anyone else of the secret - that is how
a fidelius works

3 - Dumbledore wrote a note to Harry telling him the secret - which was

"The HEADQUARTERS of the Order of the Phoenix may be found at number 12
Grimmauld place, London"

Harry received this note BEFORE he found the house. Once he read the
note - he knew the secret - anything Moody would tell him afterwards
could not be part of the secret because ONLY the secret keeper can pass
the secret along.


For the Fidelius =-

Flitwick Says
"an immensely complex spell ... involving the magical concealment of a
secret inside a living soul. The information is hidden inside the chosen
person, or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to find --
unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it." (PoA pg
205/152)

Then Sirius Says
"Dumbledore's Secret-Keeper for the Order, you know -- nobody can
find Headquarters unless he tells them personally where it is" (OotP
115/107)

So - Only the secret keeper can tell the secret.





Harry was not shown the headquarters of the OOP by someone else other than Dumbledore - He was shown 12 GP by Moody - he already knew the secret - that it was the Headquarters of the OOP. We actually KNOW what the secret was - as it was complete in the book.



The secret was not the house itself - it was that the OOP headquarters was there.


Yes, and the paper contained THAT SPECIFIC INFORMATION!

No - I quoted the paper above.

It says that the Headquarters is there - just as I said.

The fiedlius charm must protect a secret. It cannot protect something that is generally known by others. Therefore - it cannot protect the actual house - only that the house is the Headquarters.

For example. You and I could make a secret that supposedly protected Malfoy Manor. BUT - would that secret prevent Draco from finding his own home. You could also do th same with Hogwarts or the MOM - and prevent all of the students from finding their school - or all of the ministers from finding their office. NO - this cannot be done. A house, a school, an office building - are not Secrets.

The Fidelius - as Flitwick says - must protect something that was not known (Ie - a secret) when the spell was cast. Surely Tonks and Bellatrix knew where 12 GP was - as would Sirius - and the tax collector. That could not BE a secret - so it cannot be protected by the Fidelius.


Now - 12 GP was also protected by other spells

Sirius says

"My father put every security measure known to Wizard-kind on it when he lived here. It's Unplottable, so muggles can never come and call - as if they'd have wanted to -" oop p115

So - The Fidelius protects the secret - as stated above.
The other spells protect the house itself.




AS I pointed out - Sirius - in the book - specifically mentioned that the house was protected by OTHER protection spells and charms placed on it by his father - which was before Dumbledore would have
used the Fidelius. THOSE old spells made the house unplottable - not the fidelius.

This quote from OOTP at the end of Chapter Three

'Here,' Moody muttered, thrusting a piece of parchment towards Harry's Disillusioned hand and holding his lit wand close to it, so as to illuminate the writing. 'Read quickly and memorise.' Harry looked down at the piece of paper. The narrow handwriting was vaguely
familiar. It said: The Headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix may be found at number twelve, Grimmauld Place, London.

So?
.



Relevant Pages

  • Re: Fidelius Charm
    ... All we know is that once Sirius was dead - they had to move out. ... perfectly plain that he wants you to have the house, it is nevertheless possible that some spell or enchantment has been set upon the place to ensure that it cannot be owned by anyone other than a pureblood.” ... THe question on the Fidelius is what breaks the spell. ... Obviously - the spell was broken at the Potter Residence - even though the secret keeper was still alive. ...
    (alt.fan.harry-potter)
  • Re: More on the Fidelius Charm
    ... others who knew the secret could see ... Sirius was going to become the Secret Keeper but passed it on to Peter ... kill the Potters exploding part of the house. ... Charm because when Harry got to London he did *not* know the location ...
    (alt.fan.harry-potter)
  • Re: The Taboo vs the Grimmauld Place enchantments
    ... you look into OOP - Sirius says that the house is protected by other ... So - the note served a dual purpose - to reveal the secret ... be able to find the OOP meeting at 12 GP. ... Sirius would be unable to find his own house? ...
    (alt.fan.harry-potter)
  • Re: OOTP
    ... knowing the SECRET of where they are hidden. ... Even knowing they're hiding out at the house, he can't see them, because ... Note that this is how Harry was shown the headquarters of the OOTP by someone OTHER than Dumbledore. ... The fiedlius charm must protect a secret. ...
    (alt.fan.harry-potter)
  • Re: OOTP
    ... knowing the SECRET of where they are hidden. ... Even knowing they're hiding out at the house, he can't see them, because ... Note that this is how Harry was shown the headquarters of the OOTP by someone OTHER than Dumbledore. ... The fiedlius charm must protect a secret. ...
    (alt.fan.harry-potter)