Re: The not so great Dumbledore



KarentheUnicorn wrote:
Hi all,

It's been a while since I've been here but there are so many posts
it's hard to really grasp them all.

Truthfully in a way we maybe want to be Dumbledore's man/woman
whatever; but I no longer really want to be that anymore. I was a
Snape/Dumbledore; they were both my favorite characters.

Still, I can't say that I'm a Dumbledore fan like I was, though I do
admit I expected something in 7 along the lines of showing a bit of
shady behavor. Hell, my UK friend told me ages ago that Dumbledore was
evil and I just laughed it off as her being silly.

I keep coming back to the conversation on the hill with Snape; when he
came to Dumbledore with information to save Lily. Yea okay fine, we
get that Snape is a Death Eater and that he was a full death eater. In
truth we are not really all that clear on the first war and what Snape
did. Really, what did he do? Did Voldemort know how to use his
followers strenghts and weaknesses to his advantage...I'd say yes. So,
was Snape the guy you send out into the thick of battle? As far as we
know in canon the only person that identifies Snape as a Death Eater
is another Death Eater.


Not true - we know because of Voldemort's mark on him - when VOldemort calls the Death Eaters.


(shrugs) Even Sirius doesn't say for sure he
knew Snape was a DE.

Lily seems to know, I guess she just neglected to share her thoughts
about Snape upon there friendship being broken up in 5th year.

There is a lot we do not know about THAT time - back before Harry was born. WE especially do not know how Snape became a Death Eater - and when it happened.



We also have Bellatrix commenting on Snape always wiggling out of
action; do we really see Snape going out and attacking order members
when that might result in Lily being one of those people? At least
while she was fighting in the order which was apparnetly not a very
long time, considering once she got pregnant she wasn't fighting
anymore.

WE do not know this either - although it is clear she was back to fighting after Harry was born.

We have about 16 months I think it is between Lily graduating
from Hogwarts and getting pregnant...maybe to a lot of 12 year olds
that sounds like a long time but I'm sorry guys...thats not very much
time really.

We also know in the first war, Voldemort didn't seem to be in charge
of anything...in the second we see him take over the Ministry and
Hogwarts like he's playing a fast game of monopoly but apparently the
first war went on for years and he has nothing to show for it expect a
split up soul and a kid with a lightning scar. To me the first war
doesn't sound like it went all that well (shrugs)


WE really know very little about the first war - but I really don't believe that it was that much different from the second one.



Anyway, back on track...When Snape goes to Dumbledore with the
information about the Potters are the ones picked, what does
Dumbeldore do...

Okay, lets play this scene out differently. When Snape begs, for
Dumbledore to protect Lily and then Harry/James...

What does Dumbledore do, does he say I will look into it or I will
warn them...or I will see where the information leads me...

No, he says, what will you do for me Snape?

What was Dumbledore going to do if Snape said, nothing I just gave you
the information to protect them....

Was Dumbledore going to say no thanks and not protect the Potters?

This is a very tricky situation isn't it...SNAPE did not HAVE to do
anything. He could have just given the information to Dumbledore and
washed his hands of it. IT was up to Dumbledore at that point to
protect the Potters. Regardless of Snape, Dumbledore had the
information he could have go right to Lily and James and told them
what happened.


Actually - this has been a point of contention as well. I have always maintained that Dumbledore was perfectly capable of interpreting Trelawney's prediction all by himself. As head of the OOP - he will have known which families thrice defied Voldemort - and which recently had children. Once he KNEW that it could be the Potters or the Longbottoms - he would have arranged for steps to protect them. Yes - the Potters chose their own secret keeper - but we have no way of knowing exactly when or at whose insistence that they went into hiding.

Since we ALSO do not know what Voldemort's true plan was - since he too would have known about both the Longbottoms and the Potters - I always thought that it was Wormtail that sealed the Potter's fate as the first victims. I cannot believe that Voldemort actually chose ONLY the potters - he simply went after them first. Had he survived - I am sure he would have had it with the Longbottoms too.

However - the result of this regardless - was the Snape's information was not really anything useful. Dumbledore already figured it out for himself and the Potter's were already in hiding. (And probably the Longbottoms as well)

SOOOOOO

Dumbledore wanted something from Snape he didn't already have - not at all surprising to me.





He didn't, He asked Snape, what are you going to do for me?

Snape could have left, ran away...instead he says anything....

Ah yes, the truth of a loyal Death Eater, was he really all that
loyal? Snape had the choice of just going back to Voldemort; he had
given the information he didn't HAVE to do anything.

But Dumbledore issues the evil wizard...hay...I'm not doing anything
unless you do something for me in exchange.

Maybe even JKR doesn't mean it that way, but that is how it comes
across to me. I have to ask the question of...well...If Snape had said
nothing...What was Dumbledore going to do just not tell Lily and James
they were the ones and needed a secret keeper?

Why did Snape need to do anything when he had just given his info over
to the wizard who was considered the most powerful and the only wizard
Voldemort was afraid of.....Seems to me Snape didn't have to do
anything else at that point since he was handing the ball over to
Dumbledore to run with.

So, we have a bit of gigantic manipulation from Dumbledore and we have
a suddenly OH SO loyal Death Eater suddenly willing to just switch
with no second glance over to the good side.

So lets face it, we can mutter about Snape was always a loyal Death
Eater or rubbish like that but it seems apparent that when he changed
over, he changed over.


No - it is not. WE really do not know what Snape told Voldemort - but it had to be sufficient to keep Voldemort Happy. Voldemort - while the typical power hungry evil character - was not THAT stupid. Snape could not have stayed alive long without supplying SOME useful information. WE cannot just assume the only information he received was what Dumbledore wanted passed on.



I don't count being mean to teenagers as an act of pure evil Death
Eater...so all the boohoo about how mean he was to Harry, to me
doesn't confirm anything about his loyalty to Voldemort.


Then we go back to all the things we learn about what Dumbledore was
doing behind the scenes, even planning his own murder and secretly
knowing Harry had to die....I am still confused about exactly when he
knew Harry would have to die considering. When Dumbledore told Snape
Lily was dead, he told Snape that night that Voldemort would be back -
that is in fact still when Harry is 1 year old.

So to me, Snape has been under DD's thumb for a rather long time to
issue complaints of Snape still being a loyal Death Eater.


Even more to ponder - HOW did Snape get back into Voldemotr's good graces after being under Dumbledore's thumb for so long?


By the way - I really don't believe Snape had much loyalty to either side. He was being manipulated by Dumbledore on one side - and had to be of SOME service to V on the other side.



I wonder what would have happened if Harry had been killed by
Voldemort in book 5, 6. Was Dumbledore just going to say, oh well no
big deal he had to die anyway?


We knew that even IF that happened - it would not have been until the last book - since the books used Harry Potter in every title. I never believed the "hero" would die in the books - because they were started to be children's books - and JKR has said that she had much of the last book already written in her head form the very beginning.




You know the plot is like a train, it sort of only follows one track
and everyone seems to accept that track. But if you consider the what
if's of the thing you start to have lots of questions about characters
like Dumbledore. On some level it becomes almost as if the train is
going to jump the track and everything comes crashing to a halt in
some of these situations. We obviously have to accept the plot but
still, it does make me question things, especially the actions of
Dumbledore in all this and as a lot of people besides myself have
questioned, DD actions in reguards to Snape.

Would Dumbledore have gotten as much if Snape hadn't have helped him?
(shrugs) It seems obvious to me that Snape was a good knight for
Dumbledore, regardless of if he was nice to poor pitiful
teenagers...the fact is he was more Dumbledore's man than even
Harry...

JKR has said that all Slytherins are not bad, so is there really a
question now on Snape? There seems to be just as many questions on
Dumbledore's actions and what he was doing if you ask me.

It seems like me most people lump Snape into the Death Eater camp
simply because over the last 17 years he was mean to Harry Potter and
other kids at Hogwarts. Snape was still on his mission right after
Lily died; Dumbledore did tell him Voldemort would be back at that
event. Was Snape going to go out of his way to cuddle up with
Gryffendors and read them bedtime stories? Would that even have been
possible reguardless of what he did or didn't want to do.

Either way, Snape was a Slytherin. And I still have to complain that
when the Pottercast people had JKR there to question them, the only
real question they could ask about Snape was, was he supposed to be
sorted into Slytherin.

What kind of stupid...arrggg...IF JKR herself has said all Slytherins
are not bad then what the hell is the problem with being sorted into
Slytherin???? Did anyone doubt Snape was a slytherin. Slytherin isn't
just evil purebloods - JKR says they're not. Was he supposed to be in
Slytherin...DUH...

Anyway, One might ask more to the point was Dumbledore supposed to be
in Gryffindor because some of his actions come off as the actions of a
coward. 1. He was to afraid to stop his old flame, the love of his
life. When people were beggin DD to go take care of his old friend who
he had....love infatuation for....he hesitates and waits and waits
while people die; basicly watching people die. How exactly is that
different from what Snape did as an original first war Death Eater....

Then he begs for the mercy kill from Snape, not really worried about
if it is wrong or right or if it will damage Snape's soul - just so
long as he doesn't have to be tortured he's fine with Snape doing the
dirty work.

How is that different from Snape running away from McGonagall and the
other heads of house when they mutiny upon him?

(shrugs) Seem like the same deal to me but I guess it just depends on
your viewpoint on the character...thats pretty much what it boils down
to really.
.