Re: death penalty

Ron Hunter wrote:
Thom Madura wrote:
Ron Hunter wrote:
Thom Madura wrote:
Ron Hunter wrote:
Thom Madura wrote:
santosh wrote:
In article <fi51si$grv$02$1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, Thorsten Schier
<usenet@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote on Friday 23 Nov 2007 4:33 am:

mueckelein schrieb:
[...]
Please don´t mix up religion, religious extremism and faith. The
ordinary Christian or Jew or Muslim will be of no danger at all to
anyone. They just live in peace, want peace and pray to god.
My oppinion that Humans have a soul is not based on religious
conviction, but on an experience I had as a ten year old girl. I had
a nearly fatal accident then. I fell over the railing head first into
the basement of the house, 12 feet deep. I seperated from my body
during that fall, I watched my body fall down there from the top of
the staircase and only joined my body again when I landed, badly but
not lethally injured, on the floor. I was very confused about this
experience but only was able to interprete it when I was much older.
What seperated from my body? How could I see my own body fall from a
distance of more than 3 yards? I saw it fall like in slow motion, it
cannot have taken more than 1 or 2 seconds in fact. But I saw it and
still remember it vividly. Much later I came to read that many people
have experienced very similar things. If I hadn´t seen it myself I´d
always have regarded such talk as complete nonsense. But there you
are - I went through it...
There is a serious logical problem with this kind of out of body
experiences. If your soul was separated from your body, then how was
the soul able to see the body? Or did your eyes leave your body as
well? Which would raise the question how were able to interpret and
remember what your eyes saw without a brain. Or if the soul is able to
see, think and remember without the help of eyes or brains, then why
is this not working when people hurt their eyes or brains?

Are you saying she is a liar? Are you saying that all the hundreds of
thousands of out-of-body experiences are lies?

Not everything might be explainable purely by logic and science. Since
science has not yet reached it's apex, we don't even know whether it
can explain all possible phenomena. Right now, there are many things
for which science has either no explanation or a poor one.

The "soul's" "eyes" may only be active when it is separated (for
whatever reason) from the body. It may not be active as long as it
inhabits the body, which is why blind people cannot continue to "see"
with their "inner eye".

The whole experience is unexplainable by current logic and science, so
you saying that it has a "serious logical problem" is a complete non
sequitor.

Just because you cannot understand something someone said does not mean
that it is not possible or that that person is a liar.



No - what is being said is that there are other explanations for what happened that don't include having a soul in them. The mind works in different ways when it is in danger or damaged - and lots of people who have been in the same situation as mentioned have not experienced anything like this - and don't remember anything. One possible explanation could be that it was just a dream - not reality - which is far more likely.

AS I have repeatedly said - if you are looking for a "religous" meaning for something - you will associate something that has some fleeting connection to religion to it to prove it. However - those connections can also be explained without religious inference.

What is, or is not real may be beyond definition. My sister had two, at least, 'near death experiences', and whether or not you, or I, believe that what she experienced was 'real', to her it there was no doubt, whatsoever. And a friend also had such an experience after a motorcycle accident. He actually was pronounced dead at the scene, as at least half of his brain was knocked out. He woke up in the morgue. I can imagine the feeling of the morgue attendants. He related a rather lengthy NDE in which he met Jesus, and was made to experience all the hurtful things he had ever done to anyone, and then he was in a coma for some time. When I first met him, he was still blind in one eye (although he recovered some sight in it), and often seemed to 'blank out' in a conversation, and then resume. Much of his memory was lost, and his personality was greatly changed as a result of his NDE. He has recovered enough to be able to resume his career as a draftsman, and is working with his father designing a new private aircraft. Now you may argue that what he experienced wasn't reality, but how can WE know?


You are again mixing up religion and god - although this time you call god jesus. I have no problems with his experience - although I might have a problem with saying the name he called his god to be jesus as being non-religious -unless that's how he identified himself.

Religion has nothing to do with this experience - except maybe contributing a name for a character in the experience.

Your opinion, and he was NOT a religious person before the experience. He said the person identified himself as Jesus. To him, the experience was 'religious' in the sense that he was punished for past transgressions, and given a chance to remain alive, so as to show that his life had been redirected. It's a rather dramatic story, and has resulted in a person changing his whole personality, and lifestyle.
It sounds like 'a religious experience' to me, but then, being anti-religious, rather than open-minded, you already have your mind made up.


Well - at least for one thing - his name would not have been "jesus". He wasn't english - he was a Hebrew - and the English Language had not yet been invented when he supposedly lived.

The story is just a regurgitation of typical religious fairy tales taught when we were kids - which would point to the mind playing tricks - which we know can happen in daydreams alone. We get all kinds of stories from people who have been "near death". If religion was correct - all the stories would be the same. They are not.

Researchers would disagree, strongly, with you. There are two basic kinds, the pleasant kind with loved ones telling them it is not yet time to go into the light, or experiences with painful experiences, reliving the hurtful things they have done. Perhaps some additional reading is in order.

I took the time to research the issue - did You?

It seems that when a person has a religious theme to their Near Death Experience - it virtually always coincides with the religion they believe in. There have been documented cases of Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Agnostic, Atheist, and even Ancient Egyptian NDEs. That supports the idea that the person is really Hallucinating. They are seeing what they EXPECT to see - as they were taught. Certainly not all of the above religions can be TRUE at the same time when some believe in a god and at least one doesn't.
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: death penalty
    ... My oppinion that Humans have a soul is not based on religious ... remember what your eyes saw without a brain. ... thousands of out-of-body experiences are lies? ... Th light has nothing to do with religion. ...
    (alt.fan.harry-potter)
  • Re: death penalty
    ... My oppinion that Humans have a soul is not based on religious ... remember what your eyes saw without a brain. ... AS I have repeatedly said - if you are looking for a "religous" meaning for something - you will associate something that has some fleeting connection to religion to it to prove it. ... He related a rather lengthy NDE in which he met Jesus, and was made to experience all the hurtful things he had ever done to anyone, and then he was in a coma for some time. ...
    (alt.fan.harry-potter)
  • Re: death penalty
    ... My oppinion that Humans have a soul is not based on religious ... remember what your eyes saw without a brain. ... Not everything might be explainable purely by logic and science. ... AS I have repeatedly said - if you are looking for a "religous" meaning for something - you will associate something that has some fleeting connection to religion to it to prove it. ...
    (alt.fan.harry-potter)
  • Re: death penalty
    ... Please don´t mix up religion, ... How could I see my own body fall from a ... remember what your eyes saw without a brain. ... Not everything might be explainable purely by logic and science. ...
    (alt.fan.harry-potter)
  • Re: death penalty
    ... My oppinion that Humans have a soul is not based on religious ... remember what your eyes saw without a brain. ... AS I have repeatedly said - if you are looking for a "religous" meaning for something - you will associate something that has some fleeting connection to religion to it to prove it. ... He related a rather lengthy NDE in which he met Jesus, and was made to experience all the hurtful things he had ever done to anyone, and then he was in a coma for some time. ...
    (alt.fan.harry-potter)