Re: Underage drinking.

On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 23:56:08 +0100, Bert <Albert@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

Sue H [dahoov2@xxxxxxx] said:
On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 14:18:33 +0100, Bert <Albert@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

And I disagree about your comments on parental permission as access to
Hogmead was only allowed with the consent of parents, and they knew that
the drinking of butter beer would result from that permission.

I gave my kids permission to go to overnight trips with the school
too; I expect them to be chaperoned and not allowed to go into pubs
where sleezy people are. I guess it's different where you come from?

You are not comparing like with like as the parents in HPworld would be
aware that Hogsmead has two pubs and that butter beer would be available
to them, unsupervised.

Really? We were never told that one way or another. I believe one
way and you the other. There's no proof to support either claim. I
personally, don't think it's the norm (please those in the European
countries do respond) to see 13-14 year olds visiting Taverns on their
own or with a group of their kiddie friends? Is that the norm in
France, Ireland, Great Britain and all other countries? I'd love to
know!

LOL! When I have a glass of wine with my meal or a glass of champaign at
a wedding it is not to "get drunk".

You are older I am guessing right? So, when a 13 year old kid is
going to a wedding they drink the wine because they love the taste? I
am not talking about YOU and adults. I understand other cultures are
different. The first motivations for drinking I question like I
question the first motivations to smoke a cigarette. People do it to
be cool; or people do it because others around them do it. Or perhaps
with drinking it's to get drunk. I sincerely doubt a young kid
drinking for the first time is going to drink and love the taste!

As alcohol is generally not held back until adults are 21, here the
first taste "event" doesn't really happen so it is not the same as
smoking, which is usually discouraged at every level.

I'm sorry, I don't understand this sentence at all...


But I do agree most non-sweet alcohol is an acquired taste, but that of
course is not the only alcohol available.

Trust me, in my younger days, I could probably drink half the guys on
base under the table. I know what it's like to be drunk. I know what
it's like to drink for the first time and even as a young teen and as
an adult. I've also seen many instances of bad things happening to
those around me. I can't seem to remember any instances where alcohol
actually did GOOD for someone. I guess you have. Please enlighten.

I have been drunk, but never so drunk that "bad things have happened to
me". Why would I? I have more sense and alcohol is not so big a deal
that I have ever needed to make myself sick or vulnerable on it, despite
going out for a few beers every weekend in my younger days, from the age
of 16.

Why did you get drunk at all then? What was the purpose? It's like a
drug. Not much difference really. You have more sense you say, but
here again we are not talking about YOU. We are talking about
children. YOUNG children. Children with no experience. They haven't
even kissed someone no the cheek yet and here they are drinking.
Something just seems wrong. Oh conveniently, you just didn't answer
my asking you to prove what good alcohol does for a young kid. Hmm; I
am here several hours after my original post and STILL can see no
benefit for giving it to them.

Perhaps if JKR had set her story in the USA you would have a point but
as the books are set in the UK, the characters are behaving as British
people behave.

It's a book selling worldwide. The responsibility is worldwide.

Because the USA is a bit odd with its attitude to alcohol, all world
fiction needs to bring itself down to that level?

I am not thinking of myself as any nationality right now. It's funny
how you are always dragging this into the discussion. I think of
myself as a parent here. EXCLUSIVELY. PARENT,

Well, if we are going to do that, perhaps all US TV that is sold
worldwide should be stripped of guns....

Look at it this way - if JKR had armed the characters with guns we Brits
would all have been left horrified and confused but I imagine plenty of
US citizens would see this as normal and would not have given it a
second thought. Yes?

You have just managed to stereotype an entire country;

No, I was very careful not to when I choose my language. Read it again.

I read it again. You are asserting that Americans like to carry guns
and kill people. I personally am OFFENDED by that. Also, what is the
difference between a wand drawing blood and killing someone than with
a gun? NO DIFFERENCE anyway. If you want proof, ask the dead person
of the people who the dead person loved. They are DEAD. If you chose
your words carefully here, I don't see it. I think you used a bad
analogy. Otherwise, you seem intelligent, but here, it was a very
poor analogy. I think if Brits would be offended by guns, I am
ASTONISHED they do not think that way of wands. It did seem like you
were saying Americans are fond of violence and guns.

PS I don't know if it's just since Iraq. I think so. I remember
friends in the UK who had very differing opinions of the USA; I think
a lot of the stereotypes that americans are fond of war are because we
have an incompetent President. I am so tired of having a moronic
president and being judged by his actions. I strongly believe he's
not impeachable ONLY because it's too close to election time and the
hearings alone would drag out that long. If you look at American poll
numbers, you will see that he has the lowest to second lowest in
HISTORY. I think Carter may have been lower. From that, it would
seem most of America (think his poll numbers were about 30% or less)
believes him a fool.

you have just shown biggotry in my view.

That's a bit rich coming from you. ;-)

Really? What have I said that is biggoted? Prey tell. It's amazing
to me that you really state things and don't pull facts up to support
things you said :) (sarcastic smiley aside)

That's pretty sad. By the way, pointing a
wand and killing someone is just as evil as pointing a gun at someone
and killing them.

Rather than attack, try to understand that I was simply trying to use an
analogy to help you see this in another way.

Very poor analagy that didn't support whatever it was you were trying
to say.

It's all about cultural values and trying to understand another culture
*only* on the basis on your own just doesn't work and you need instead
to use context.

By the way, I never said where I am. You assume too much.

I looked at your headers, so I assumed nothing. :-p

I am visiting my friend in america. You have indeed assumed.... just
kidding I am from the US. But really you couldn't possibly know that
for sure.

I
understand enough about cultures. I am college educated, I have
travelled and I have friends of all races and religions. It's about
CHILDREN we are talking about. I am sorry if I want to protect the
children of the world no matter who they are and where they live.
It's my belief that introducing alcohol to young children, no matter
where they live, is not needed. It's simply not. The world would
have no bad consequences if children never drank alcohol. However,
developing a taste for it can lead to more. It's better they are
older and wiser to better handle it. That is my opinion and it won't
alter. If you want to let your 13 year old drink wine in your home
fine that's your perrogative. I don't think I'll let mine come over
to play as when two children with no brains get together, I know they
are likely to see what just a little more can do.....

That's it in a nutshell - it is up to you how you bring up your children
but expecting a novel to take on your values rather than the values of
the author (which are in turn the values of a number of entire
countries) is just plain balmy.

I never expected a writer to take on that responsibility. I just HOPED
she would. Diana would have. Mother Teresa would have. They were
after the children of the world... I was hoping to see more of that in
society, but guess not.
.