Re: Dumbledore asked Snape to kill him

On 21 Apr 2007 06:31:59 -0700, Alex Clark <alexbclark@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:


BTW, part of my theory is that Snape might have been under the
influence of Felix when he negotiated with Cissy and Bella.

You'll have to explain your thinking there. As I understand Felix,
it's supposed to give the user very good luck. If you believe that
Snape was accidentally trapped into a horrible Vow which forced him to
either die or kill his friend Dumbledore, that is certainly not good
luck. Quite the opposite. . . .

That depends on what he wanted luck for. Did he want luck to make him
happy, or to win, or to survive?

I don't think Felix works that way. I think it just gives you general
good luck - everything you try to do goes smoothly. So if he met with
Bella and Narcissa while under the influence of Felix, the meeting
should have gone smoothly, and he should have been able to easily
convince them of his loyalty to Voldemort, without any unlucky
surprises (such as that unfortunate Vow).


If he wanted to be lucky against
Voldemort, then Felix could easily have prompted him to do things that
he would not want to do. And if he is against Voldemort, then that is
probably what he wanted his luck for.


But finally, the straw
that breaks the camel's back, so to speak, is Rowling's explanation of
what happens when a Secret Keeper dies: the secret dies with him, and
the secret remains a secret forever. So, if Voldemort really wanted
to be safe, he would chose (as Secret Keeper), some useless soul like
Wormtail, would reveal the secret to him, and then immediately kill
him. His death would seal his secret for eternity, and his horcruxes
could never be found. No need to trust anyone... just kill them.

That would be such a blatant violation of the spirit of the Fidelius
Charm that I hardly suppose that it could work. ISTM that the charm
works because the owner of the Secret chose someone with whom to trust
the Secret. Without this trust, it would be like trying to cast Crucio
without any sadistic feelings

In that case, Voldemort would never be able to use the Fidelius charm
at all, because, as the untrusting wretch he is, he could never
generate enough trust to produce the spell.

You seem to have assumed that the only way that this would work is
that the owner of the Secret would have to be confident in trusting
the Secret Keeper. That isn't what I meant (as I also said in the
quote below). They have to *choose* to trust the SK (IMO without any
reason to believe that the SK will be unable to betray their Secret)
whether or not they are sure that they have made the right choice.

I didn't assume anything. The person replying to me (was that you?)
stated their view that trust would be necessary for the SK spell
(after I suggested that one would just kill the SK to be certain he
wouldn't reveal the secret). That was their idea. I simply replied
that if trust was necessary, Voldemort probably couldn't use the spell
at all.


or accidentally falling into the path
of the AK meant for one's son. Not to say that the trust has to be
total and without suspicion, but there would have to be a choice to
trust the Secret Keeper.

Or, looking at it another way, he could have complete trust in the
Secret Keeper, because he would know that the Secret Keeper would be
dead a few seconds later. And dead men tell no tales.

That is just the sort of loophole that would tempt Voldemort. But I
would guess that he knows, perhaps from having tested this very
method, that it doesn't produce a working Fidelius Charm.

And why would you guess that? It seems to me that it would be a very
effective means of keeping a secret... We have no evidence suggesting
that one can't kill a Secret Keeper.


And if, as I suspect, that is a condition of the FC, then I am sure
that Voldything is well aware of it.

Besides, what if her answer was based on the assumption that the SK
leaves the Earth upon dying? Voldy might choose someone who would hang
around as a ghost and tell everyone for revenge.

It appears that only cowards become ghosts (which always reminds me of
the old "Canterville Ghost" movie I saw as a kid). So Voldy would
merely have to avoid choosing a coward.

It seems more like it takes a coward to prefer to become a ghost.

I fail to see the difference.


But one who doesn't really want to stay as a ghost could still choose to
do so as a kind of self-sacrifice, or for the sake of revenge.

We have no indication that people can stay as ghosts to finish
unfinished business. The only characteristic mentioned is that they
are afraid of death. Sir Nick is positive that Sirius will never come
back as a ghost, for instance, despite the fact that he may well have
things he could tell Harry that would help him.



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