Re: Showdown at Hogwarts

In article <1ksht2tv76coup4f57cbc9s0rk5hgbsifb@xxxxxxx>, gjw@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote:

On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 12:55:05 +0100, cwlNO@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Green-Eyed
Chris) wrote:

In article <g43gt2l10mlrunca3ri27p3ssupsvmskuv@xxxxxxx>, gjw@xxxxxxxxxxx
wrote:


but the whole complex
is wide open and we definitely need the background story. I don't think
that we will be visiting the Pensieve as often as you seem to believe.
I certainly expect a lot from Aberforth and also expect some of the older
characters to start talking once Harry comes of wizarding age.

The reason Rowling has used the pensieve so often is that it is a
great way to reveal information about the past in a dynamic manner.
In the TV biz, they used to talk about the problem of "talking heads",
that is, people simply sitting and discussing matters. It's boring.
Likewise, lengthy explanations of what happened (and why) are also
boring when a character in a book just sits and talks. It breaks the
writer's rule of "Don't tell it, show it." The pensive allows Harry
(and us) to actually travel back in time (so to speak) and witness the
events as they take place. Normally, an author might just use a
flashback to do the same thing - but since we see almost everything
through Harry's eyes, the flashback has to involve Harry - and the
pensieve does a good job of permitting this in instances where Harry
was not originally present when the events took place.

Don't get me wrong. I think it's a great vehicle. But I also think that it
is to JKR's credit that she tries to be inventive and not repeat her
tricks too often as with Time-Turners or Polyjuice Potion. DD keeps
memories because he is getting forgetful. Snape removed his thoughts to
keep Harry from seeing them. It can be presumed that he returned them
after the ~lessons~ were terminated.


Nope. I've thought about that. I believe that the reason Snape has
been successful in fooling both LV and DD is that Snape removes key,
(incriminating) memories from his head whenever he is around them.
(Perhaps a different set of memories depending upon the person he is
trying to fool.) Voldemort feels safe around Snape because he can
read his mind - what he doesn't realize is that you can't read what
isn't there... Since he was going back to Voldemort, he would have
had those memories tucked away somewhere safe. I think that Rowling
introduced the idea of bottling pensieve memories (e.g. Slughorn) in
the last book because Harry will find Snape's hidden memories after he
is dead, and learn about his true motives (whatever they may be).

I have thought of that possibility as well. I would doubt that Voldemort
doesn't know about Pensieves and realize that anyone might hide memories
from him.

In the real world, yes, he most likely would. But this is fiction,
and if Rowling wants to employ the idea (of extracted memories), she
will most likely present it as something novel and unforeseen.


Wormtail's presence at Spinner's End indicates that Voldemort
trusts nobody implicitly.

Yes, with Voldemort, trust is relative. He trusts Snape more than he
trusts most people. What I was really trying to say is that he
assumes he doesn't have to trust Snape at all, because he can _know_
what he's thinking through Legilimency. Extracting just a few crucial
memories, though, can foil that premise, allowing Voldemort to read
most of Snape's thoughts safely, without him ever encountering the few
things Snape wants to keep secret from him. Snape has been open with
both Dumbledore and Voldemort about most of his actions, he simply has
different explanations for WHY he did what he did (ala Spinners End).
Each side thinks he did those things to forward their own agenda
(when, in my opinion, he did it all to forward his OWN agenda). The
key memories to hide would be those which would reveal his basic
motivations (such as those involving Lily).

That's your _evil_ Snape. My Snape might well deposit his Lily memories
with Dumbledore for safekeeping.


Unless he has actually done something evil, there would be no pressing
reason for Snape to hide memories at Hogwarts.

I suspect that he has probably given Voldemort more information than
Dumbledore would approve of, just as he gave Dumbledore more
information than Voldemort would approve of. He wants to keep both
sides happy, keep them seeing him as a source of important
information. He just can't afford to give Voldemort information that
would allow him to survive whatever fate Snape has planned for him
(which probably involves keeping Harry healthy).


I believe that he was just
as surprised as anyone else by the DE attack through the cabinets and had
no time to leave any memories behind. This might make him more vulnerable
to exposure by his enemies in the ranks.

I doubt that Snape knew the details of the cabinets, but he surely saw
an attack on Dumbledore coming soon, and must have considered what he
would do when it came. Having taken the Unbreakable Vow, he had
already basically promised to kill (or at least help Draco kill)
Dumbledore - which meant it was inevitable that Snape would have to
flee Hogwarts soon.

I think he was hoping that Draco would somehow succeed on his own, but he
would still, of course, have been prepared for the worst. As you say
above, this is JKR's fiction. One of the first threads I did here was
about the lack of justice and efficient policing in the WW. The general
resonance was that that's simply the way it is.

I raise the point because there is no mention of luggage in ~Flight of the
Prince~. A few days passed between Dumbledore's death and his funeral.
Even in potterverse, one would at least expect to hear that a team of
Aurors had gone through Snape's rooms with a fine toothed comb. As (your)
Snape is working solely for himself, it is doubtful that he would entrust
anything to a third person (unless there is something to the Irma Pince
anagram or JKR's ~revelation~ that a few of the Hogwarts professors have
spouses). He certainly wouldn't keep anything critical at Spinner's End
with Wormtail snooping around. There is also no mention of Dumbledore
having had a last will and testament by which he could have left Harry a
memory regarding Snape.

I think it more likely that JKR will use Aberforth or some other character
who is holding back until Harry comes of age for background exposition.
Sending Harry to the Pensieve again would be a bit ~too~ convenient for my
taste, but I'm not in the targeted readership either.


BTW, I don't particularly like the way JKR handled Slughorn's memory. To
me, a memory is something singular. JKR uses it like a computer file which
is duplicated, transferred to an external disk and edited there.

Good point. Of course, she also hasn't answered the question of
whether or not the person who extracts a memory forgets about that
incident (until the memory is put back in his head). I assume he
does, but it's not 100% clear. For instance, having given up the
memory about telling young Riddle about horcruxres, does Slughorn now
even remember that he told Riddle about them? And if he does
remember, could a Legilimens read that memory from his mind? If he
could (and if Rowling is consistent), then my theory about Snape
extracting memories would obviously be wrong...

....perish the thought. ;) But, yes. That's the general direction my
thought was going.

Just as I was about to press Dee-Dee's button, I had another one. If
memories can be manipulated, then they can also be destroyed. I had a
vision of Voldemort opening Slytherin's locket and finding a memory of
Salazar in bed with his muggle wife.
--
Chris
.