Re: Showdown at Hogwarts

In article <1b57t29g6eb2ikucduhrvkj4jlqs2tjp23@xxxxxxx>, gjw@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote:

On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 13:40:15 +0100, cwlNO@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Green-Eyed
Chris) wrote:

In article <9el4t2lds7086sps8q8utm2e2tl570ks3h@xxxxxxx>, gjw@xxxxxxxxxxx
wrote:

On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 09:48:56 +0100, cwlNO@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Green-Eyed
Chris) wrote:

In article <2kd2t2t83t9f8gndschsnirf919qf1tpvu@xxxxxxx>, gjw@xxxxxxxxxxx
wrote:

On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 23:30:52 GMT, "DaveD"
<davedn1DELETE@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

But would magical folk even bother with
using official Registry Officers or church weddings? It will be
interesting
to see how JKR plays that one!


Lily (and/or James) seemed to have an appreciation of church rituals.
According to Rowling, they put themselves in danger to sneak out at
the height of Voldemort's reign of terror to baptize baby Harry (JKR
actually used the verb "christian" for the event.) So she (or he) may
have also wanted a church wedding.

Either you are seriously slipping or you have your tongue in a wicked
cheek and are just trying to start something, well knowing how quickly any
references to Christianity turn into flaming wars around here.

You really must learn to keep up with JKR's comments...

Rowling was asked about "Harry's godfather", Sirius.

Since a godfather is the adult who is present (alongside the parents)
at a child's baptism, some on this group (including me) had speculated
that Harry had indeed been baptized. Others disagreed, assuming that
the word "godfather" was used in a more general sense, and that no
such ceremony could be assumed. Another argument was also made, that
most Brits don't take their religion seriously, so that even if there
had been a baptism (christianizing), it would have been merely an
excuse for a social occasion/party.

Since a baptism usually involves both a godfather and a godmother,
Rowling was asked if Harry also had godmother. Her reply was
informative. She said no, because Harry was baptized at the height of
Voldemort's reign of terror, and it was too dangerous for social
occasions. So they just brought along Sirius when they went to
christian Harry in a small ceremony.

Here is the exact quote:

Q. Does Harry have a godmother? If so, will she make an appearance
in future books?

JKR: No, he doesn?t. I have thought this through. If Sirius had
married? Sirius was too busy being a big rebel to get married. When
Harry was born, it was at the very height of Voldemort fever last time
so his christening was a very hurried, quiet affair with just Sirius,
just the best friend. At that point it looked as if the Potters would
have to go into hiding so obviously they could not do the big
christening thing and invite lots of people. Sirius is the only one,
unfortunately. I have got to be careful what I say there, haven?t I?

Your point is well taken, but JKR's retrograde comments are generally as
valuable as an overdose of U-No-Poo. As used in the books, I have always
understood the word "godfather" as being analogous to a male sponsor at
baptism. We first learn of this relationship in PoA, Ch. 10, when Fudge
says: "Then they named him godfather to Harry." There is no indication of
a ceremony.

That's what a baptism/christening is - a ceremony (usually a brief
one). The godfather (and usually a godmother) attend the ceremony and
pledge to raise the child in the faith if something happens to the
birth parents. (Of course, Sirius was in Azkaban, so he was in no
position to do anything with baby Harry after the Potters were
killed.)

I went to a very conservative parochial grade school in redneck territory
and know quite well what a godfather is ~supposed~ to be. I have also read
Mario Puzo and know what a godfather ~can~ be. We were taught that
christening a three-headed dog, rechristening a Hippogriff and having a
godfather wizard sing "God Rest Ye, Merry Hippogriffs" is blasphemy and a
derision of the sacrament of baptism.

Again, based on canon, I think it is obvious that JKR takes great care to
insure that religion plays no recognizable role in potterverse. All
references to Christmas and Easter are kept generic and no religious
ceremonies are mentioned. DD's funeral is neutral and I expect the same to
be the case at the upcoming wedding. Occasional use of the words "heaven",
"hell" or "devil" are reserved for emphatic statements. The same goes for
the word "God" with the singular exception of Sirius being Harry's
"godfather". For all of the above reasons, I choose to believe that JKR is
using the word in one of its broader senses just as her use of the word
"christen" could be applied to a muggle battleship. In any case, no
wizards are ever described as having been christened. For them it could
just as well be a party where an infant is given a name and a keg of
butterbeer is emptied. I know that any baptized Christian can perform a
baptism, but no character has been identified as such and we have never
seen a wizard come closer to a church than being in a muggle graveyard.



Pushed to the extreme, even JKR's use of the word "christening" in the
quote could be understood as giving a name by a ceremony suggestive of
baptism.

What??

You can cut the theatrics. It is one of the established definitions of
"christening".


Rowling repeated basically the same answer in a Leaky Cauldron
interview in 2005. Here's the wording to that one:

JKR: "At the time that they christened Harry, they were in hiding.
This was not going to be a widely attended christening, because he was
already in danger. So this is something they were going to do very
quietly, with as few people as possible, that they wanted to make this
commitment with Sirius. And ? yeah. Can?t say much more."

Again, your point is well taken and absolutely valid, but JKR's logorrheic
interviews do not necessarily always impress me. I notice that she does
not use the term "baptism" in your two quotes, but it can well be that
"christen" is simply more commonly used in the UK. When it comes to
religion she appears to waffle in her interviews:

http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/MTarchives/003774.html:

Is she a Christian?
"Yes, I am,'' she says. "Which seems to offend the religious right far
worse than if I said I thought there was no God. Every time I've been
asked if I believe in God, I've said yes, because I do, but no one ever
really has gone any more deeply into it than that, and I have to say that
does suit me, because if I talk too freely about that I think the
intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what's coming
in the books.''

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?xml=/arts/2006/01/10/ftpotter10.xml:

She is a Christian (Episcopalian) and "like Graham Greene, my faith is
sometimes about if my faith will return. It's important to me".

Not that it matters, but I assume that her private wedding was a civil
ceremony and I haven't heard of her children being baptized. In any case,
she does not impress me as being someone who would insist that Harry is a
baptized Christian as you speculate. I think it best that we agree to
disagree.

_However_, in the hope that I still have your ear, I do have something
else that I would like your opinion on. <sound of gjw falling for such
psychological subtility> We are both in agreement regarding the
Lily/Severus connection and merely differ as to when it began.

I know you will recall that, from the time where Scabbers was transformed
into Peter Pettigrew, in the Shrieking Shack, to the time where he
transformed himself back, in front of the Whomping Willow, Snape was
conveniently unconscious. JKR obviously did not wish for the two of them
to interact in any way so that Snape could continue to be convinced of
Sirius' guilt.

In light of the Lily/Severus connection, I think that Snape showed great
control by not killing Sirius on the spot. But what might he have done
with Pettigrew had he been conscious? Would he not, at least, have joined
in the accusations that Sirius and Remus were making and revealed his
desire for vengeance? I have never heard this aspect of the scene
mentioned, but it isn't worth a separate thread.

As it is, Snape learned that Wormtail was still alive when he administered
Veritaserum to Moodycrouch and has surely been able to connect the rat
droppings. The vermin's presence at Spinner's End was surely intolerable
for him. But, now that he has advanced to DE #2 (although, IIRC, you see
that differently), doesn't it seem logical that he should make some move
to have the rat exterminated, being motivated by revenge for Lily's death?
--
Chris
(a girl was laughing as a scrawny boy tried to mount a bucking broomstick?)
.