Re: hp7 deaths: McGonagall and Hagrid because...

On 10 Feb 2007 11:53:00 -0800, nystulc@xxxxxx wrote:


gjw wrote:
On 8 Feb 2007 23:46:55 -0800, nystulc@xxxxxx wrote:

marli_0000@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote:

Draco, certainly, because I don't think
Snape's intervention is going to save him.

You have not much faith in Dumbledore then. He made Draco a
promise (despite having every reason to anticipate his own
impending death). Do you really think it was just blather --
that he had no reason to believe his promise of protection
could be carried out?

When Dumbledore made that promise, there was no one in the tower
except he and Draco (unless you count frozen Harry, of course).
Draco had taken away Dumbledore's wand, and he was helpless.
Had he succeeded in talking Draco into switching sides, I'm sure
he would have then unfrozen Harry and gotten all three of them
out of there in a hurry...

Two problems with this.

First, as far as we know, DD *did* talk Draco into switching sides.
We know Draco would not have killed DD, and logically, switching sides
was his only other hope. He was lowering his wand.

But he didn't do so quickly enough. The DE's broke in before DD and
the boys could escape.


He refused to
kill Dumbledore even to save his family. He and his family are now
doomed ... unless DD can keep his promise.

I disagree that Draco or his family is doomed (except in a spiritual
sense, perhaps). No one heard his conversation with Dumbledore (other
than Harry), so they have no way of knowing that he almost switched
sides. Al they know is that he was unable to "pull the trigger". They
will write that off to him just being too young and inexperienced.
Had he let Dumbledore get away, then he would have been doomed. But
Dumbledore, the only man Voldemort feared, ended up dead, and he ended
up dead because Draco had been smart enough to craft a plan to sneak
DE's into Hogwarts, and had carried it out. When the DE's entered, he
had Dumbledore trapped, held at wand-point, which allowed Snape to
finish him off. Voldemort should be deliriously happy. No doubt, he
will take the opportunity to criticize Draco for being a loser, but
he'll be happy enough with the end result to keep him alive (albeit in
a subservient, Wormtail-like position).


And yet, your might-have-
beens failed to come about. You may argue that this is because Draco
did not accept the offer *sooner* (even though DD had yet to make his
offer). But mere acceptance of DD's offer, at the time actually made,
would not have affected the outcome.

Who said it would have?

You said that Dumbledore wouldn't have promised to hide Draco if he
hadn't been able to do it. I say that if the DE's had not chosen that
exact moment to burst into the room, Dumbledore would have escaped and
successfully hidden Draco, just as he promised.


Secondly, everything we know about DD's plans was that he intended to
wait on the Tower for Snape to arrive.

That was before he got involved with Draco (and before he froze
Harry). With DE's about to break in, in his weakened condition his
only reasonable option was to take the two kids and flee. It might
mean his death, if he can't get back to Snape in time, but he would
take that chance.



Even if he left the tower or
not, he still wanted Snape. Even if Draco had accepted, the story
still would have ended with DD dead, and Draco with few other options
than to flee with Snape.

No, it wouldn't. Assuming that Dumbledore was unable to get to Snape
later (after they escaped), it would probably have ended with Draco
and Harry in some remote location, trying to deal with a sick and
possibly dying Dumbledore, while the battle raged on between the Order
members and the DE's in the castle. Once the DE's were driven out of
Hogwarts, if Dumbledore were still alive, he would seek out Snape to
cure him. If Dumbledore died from the potion by the time the battle
ended, Harry would be able to report the nature of the conversation
(and Draco's acceptance of DD's terms), and the other Order members
would have seen to it that Draco (and his family) were hidden to
fulfill Dumbledore's last promise.


(Of course, if they had later succeeded in contacting Snape to come to
try to cure DD, the results would have depended upon whether Snape is
really good or evil. He might well have killed Dumbledore then,
rather than cure him. But, on the other hand, if there had been an
audience of Order members present, rather than DE's, he might have had
no choice but to cure him... Then again, there's that damn Vow to
consider... so it gets tricky.)





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