Re: Snape: evil or not evil?


gjw wrote:
On Thu, 04 Jan 2007 08:08:23 -0500, Toon <toon@xxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Wed, 03 Jan 2007 08:00:27 GMT, gjw <gjw@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:


I would say that DD knowingly forced Snape's hand in the Tower, making him
choose "between what is right, and what is easy".

And just how did he do that? As I recall, the poor old man only had
time to say two words ("Severus, please...") before Snape blasted him
out the window.

Previosuly set up. The please was to follow through, and choose what
is right, not what was easy.

Unfortunately, a previous set-up makes even less sense. In the tower,
Dumbledore at least knew that he was at death's door, and was trapped,
so asking to be killed might make some iota of sense. But for a
healthy Dumbledore to plan his own murder in advance is simply
ludicrous. I know people want to believe it, because it would absolve
Snape of his guilt (and would restore the illusion of DD's
omniscience), but honestly, it just doesn't make any sense.


I do agree that DD knew he was at death's door in the tower due to the
immediacy of the situation. However, he also was aware of it because he
was severely weakened from his foray with the ring during the summer
(which Snape healed him to the best of his ability) as well as from
injesting the potion/poison in the cave.

Extrapolating from what we know so far, my theory is that the only
other person DD discussed the horcrux hunt with was Snape because if
anything DID happen to DD, Harry would need help with the final
horcruxes (either finding them or being cured from any hexes that were
placed on them). It was Snape who DD requested upon return from the
cave, and it was he who healed DD from the curse on the ring, and it
would be Snape who would be needed to help Harry). While he may not
have been dying as a direct result of the ring, it did weaken DD.

Snape was aware of LV's demand that Draco kill DD and relayed that
information to DD, and I believe that DD, knowing that his time was
getting short, made an arrangement w/Severus to prevent that from
happening (the Draco part) at whatever cost. I don't necessarily
believe it was a detailed plan but rather a "what if" scenario plan.

But the easiest way to prevent Draco from
becoming a murderer is to simply take away his wand and lock him in
his room...

I sincerely hope you're being facetious here! :-)


Having Snape become the murderer instead seems a rather
drastic method, to say the least, especially when Dumbledore would be
the victim in both cases...

Actually, it's not. DD, for all his faults, did see the writing on the
wall and knew that his time was short. At this juncture in the story,
Snape was more important to Harry than DD because of his relationship
with Voldemort. If Severus died, DD could still help Harry on his
horcrux hunt, but the OOTP would lose valuable information regarding
LV's plans which, at this stage, were vitally important. If DD died, as
long as Snape was aware of the horcrux hunt and continued to spy for
the Order, Harry would have help.

Since Dumbledore believed that Snape was playing double-agent with
Voldemort, he most likely assumed that Snape would be given some set
of destructive orders by Voldemort - but he almost certainly assumed
that Snape would never carry them out.

Now that is sheer conjecture.

The whole tower situation was easy to avoid. First, Snape
never takes the Vow, saying that Voldemort ordered Draco to do it, not
Snape, and that he isn't about to disobey the Dark Lord to please
Bella. He then tells a grateful Narcissa that he will do his best to
help Draco. The worst that can happen is that Bella continues to
mistrust him.

When Snape took the vow w/Narcissa, he and DD already had their "talk"
so he had nothing to lose by taking the Vow and if anything, it would
raise his credibility with LV. He couldn't afford to have anyone on
Voldemort's side, at this stage in the game, mistrust him and what
better way than to have Bella tell LV about the vow?

There's a reason why the DEs couldn't/wouldn't kill DD instead of
Draco. We all know that it was supposed to be "hands off" on Harry so
that LV could kill him. We also know that they would never go against
any directive from LV. Hence, the cautions before Severus arrived.
However, when he DID arrive, it was to him that Amycus said "the boy
doesn't seem able...". It was also because of Severus that "The three
Death Eaters fell back without a word. Even the werewolf seemed cowed".

I don't believe Snape took an Unbreakable Vow. Dumbledore is
ridiculously trusting at times, and I can't imagine him insisting that
anyone in his employ take a loyalty oath. If he had forced him to
take a Vow, he wouldn't have needed to trust Snape (trust implies some
element of free will), he would have known absolutely that Snape could
not betray him.

I do possibly agree with you on this one.

About that look of hatred. Don't be so sure it was self-loathing. It
is mentioned again a short time later, as Harry chases Snape:

"Snape closed in and looked down on him where he lay, wandless and
defenseless as Dumbledore had been. Snape's pale face, illuminated by
the flaming cabin, was suffused with hatred just as it had been before
he had cursed Dumbledore."

Well, Severus just killed DD, the only person for the past 16 years who
trusted him unequivocally. How would you feel if you knew, on an
intellectual level, that it had to be done; that it was the right
choice under the circumstances even though it was one of the most
gut-wrenching things you've ever had to do, the most difficult fully
aware choice you ever had to make? To top it off, this "Savior of the
Wizarding World", an indulged, headstrong, rule-breaker has the
audacity to call you a "coward"?

That is Snape's hatred for Harry, a loathing that we know from
experience is quite real..

I do agree that Snape held much animosity for Harry. However, I think
it had more to do with what Harry represented than Harry as a person.
His hatred for the Marauders obviously tainted his perception of Harry
even before Harry ever started at Hogwarts. I also feel that (and this
is conjecture on my part) that Snape held in contempt the pedestal upon
which the WW placed Harry and his abilities, allowing him to get away
with so much, while he, Severus, had been precariously juggling his
life for so many years and since LV's return, that scenario was only
going to get more dangerous. It's a wonder Severus didn't AK Harry on
the spot with all that emotion running through him, but he didn't; and
it wasn't because of LV's orders to "leave the boy for Voldemort
either!" :-)

The point is that his hatred for Harry was real, and JKR directly
compares that expression of hatred (for Harry) to the same expression
of hatred he had on his face when he looked at Dumbledore.

Harry also hated himself and was repulsed by what he did to DD in the
cave.

DD froze Harry to keep him from ruining the plan by jumping in
to save DD from Draco, Snape, et al, a

DD froze Harry to keep him safe. He had a double motive for wanting
to protect him: he loves Harry, and Harry is the only person who can
destroy Voldemort.

Actually, it's probably a little of all of the above.

And now Harry has ruined it by
seeing snape and beign able to finger him. perhaps snape was to be
"captured" by the DE's during their escape, to keep his cover int he
order, but Harry ruined that.

If Dumbledore had somehow pre-planned his own death, and he didn't
want Harry to think Snape was a real murderer,

I believe you're missing the point. As I said above, the murder itself
wasn't pre-planned, just the idea: the knowledge that, when the time
came, DD knew he could count on Severus to do what was right, not what
was easy.

then he certainly wouldn't have frozen Harry in a position where Harry would be certain
to see the murder that was about to happen...

What would you have had him do with Harry?

But he _was_ a coward. He had just murdered, in cold blood, a poor
old man who could barely stand up, and who had been the only person
(with the possible exception of Lily) who had ever tried to help
Snape. If he had any conscience (or simple pride) left in him at all,
that cowardly action should haunt him.

Totally disagree.

Actually, if you're talking about the conversation Hagrid overheard,
he said ""I jus' heard Snape sayin' Dumbledore took too much fer
granted an maybe he - Snape - didn' wan' ter do it any more -"

To me, "any more" sounds like it was something Snape had already been
doing - such as playing double-agent or keeping an eye on Draco - that
he wanted to stop doing...

But then after that, Hagrid also says, "An' then he said summat abou'
Snape makin' investigations in his House, in Slytherin. Well, there's
nothin' strange abou' that! All the Heads o' Houses were asked ter look
inter that necklace business--"
Then Harry replies, "Yeah, but DD's not having rows with the rest of
them, is he?"

I do agree that "any more" could sound as if it were something Snape
had already been doing; or it could also mean something that he had
already "agreed" to do; i.e. acquiescing to DD's wishes to kill him if
the situation should ever arise. All the Heads of Houses were keeping
an eye on their own students. There would be no reason for DD to single
Snape out; and as for "keeping an eye on Draco"...not a big deal to do.
No, it had to be something so powerful, so repulsive to Snape that he
put himself on a precarious slope with his friendship with DD.

I also feel that even though the books were targetted for a specific
readership, and IMO, JK isn't going to get too convoluted with her
story, the basic premise of Snape ultimately being faithful to LV is
weak and too predictable because from the first book, she's painted him
with a broad brush as someone whose loyalties are in question. My own
feeling is that it would be anti-climactic.

.