Re: Godric's Hollow and the missing day *** possible spoilers ***
- From: ag30476@xxxxxxxxx
- Date: 20 Jul 2006 00:11:51 -0700
Troels Forchhammer wrote:
I think in this post some times you respond to what gjw wrote and some
times you respond to what I wrote. But that's OK, it's confusing for me
to keep track of all the arguments and I started this troll.
Snape being present at Godric's Hollow explains nothing, and thusI have to agree.
begins at a disadvantage.
We do need something or someone to do that, and since it turns up nextYup
time in Albania when Wormtail arrives there, and since Wormtail is even
allowed to use it . . .
Yes that could be the secret. Then it would work similar to the secretExcept where Harry is hiding. You have to come up with a strangely
worded secret which does not protect Harry's hiding place in case
his parents and or LV is destroyed.
I didn't come up with it. Rowling describes the secret as "the
location of a family in hiding".
Something along the lines of "The hiding-place of the Potter family may
be found at the Rose Cottage, Godric's Hollow." (the name of the house
is invented for this occasion).
That would certainly suffice to explain every observed effect of the
at 12 Grimmauld, ie "The HQ of OotP may be found at the 12 Grimmauld,
But this is the prob: "The hiding-place of the Potter family mayOnce there is no longer a family in hiding, no longer an intact
hiding place, and no longer the enemy that was stalking them,
there is no secret.
be found at the Rose Cottage, Godric's Hollow," must then contain the
hidden clauses "by the Potter family it is meant a grouping of at least
one living parent and the child" and "by hiding place is meant the Rose
Cottage in an undamaged state" and "by hiding is meant hiding from LV,
the enemy of the Potters". Only then could it be that the FC is broken
once there is no longer a family OR there is not longer a hiding place
OR a need to hide. Aside from being unecassarily long, I think you need
the wizard world equivalent of a lawyer to write "The Potter family,
consisting of Harry Potter and either James Potter or Lilly Potter or
both James Potter and Lilly Potter, can be found hiding at Rose Cottage
in Godric's Hollow until such a time as the direct threat to Harry
Potter's life from Lord Voldemort, the Death Eaters, and any person or
persons acting under the direction of Lord Voldemort or the Death
Eaters cease to exist. In the event that the Rose Cottage sustains
damage to such an extent that a reasonable person would then judge the
Rose Cottage to be an unsuitable hiding place, then this secret will be
null and void."...whew!
But this requires a very exact and not necessarily likely set ofIt's the only way of defining it that fits the facts. The charm
is clearly not in effect when Hagrid arrives at Godric's Hollow,
or else he wouldn't have been able to see the Potters.
That is the way I see it as well, though I think it is possible to
construct a consistent scenario that allows the Charm to still be in
Peter Pettigrew tells the secret to Sirius -- there is no problem
there: Sirius was to have been the actual Secret-Keeper, and would
probably insist on being told so that he could visit the Potters if
Peter Pettigrew also writes an unsigned note with a sentence revealing
the secret (along the lines of the sentence above), but does not sign
the paper, and does not add any spells to make the paper self-destruct.
This note is given to Sirius for handing on to Dumbledore, preserving
the illusion that it is Sirius who reveals the secret.
Dumbledore then lets Hagrid read the secret before sending him to
Godric's Hollow (whether before or after the attack).
As I said, I don't think that it is very likely that it happened that
way, but it is still, IMO, possible without resorting to inventing new
magical effects or abilities.
events. And the reluctance to invent new magical effects is not
something that JK shares. Each book has had a ton of new magical
effects. Often, a magical effect is invented that directly contradicts
a previous absolute.
Except she breaks these all the time (no apparition inWe are clearly talking about an absolutely iron-clad secret here.
That's the whole purpose of the thing . . .
Hogwarts/house-elves, no apparition in the ministry/Fawkes, impossible
to survise the AK curse/Fawkes).
Yes! Just like 12 Grimmauld.There can be no loopholes.
Depending on what you mean by 'loopholes'. If one of the Potters had
been caught, he or she would have been unable to reveal the secret,
even under veritaserum, but an intelligent person questioning them
might learn enough to guess that they were hiding in the Potters' house
in Godric's Hollow, *but**that**would**not**help**them*! Even if they
/knew/ that the Potters were hiding in that precise house, they would
have been unable to actually enter or even see the house until they had
been told the secret.
The same would apply to the Black house. If Narcissa and Lucius didn't,Exactly!
after speaking with Kreacher during the OotP Christmas, guess that the
old Black house was not only Sirius' hiding place, but also the
headquarters (or at least a gathering place) for the Order of the
Phoenix, then they were significantly more stupid than I credit them
for. But the guess wouldn't help them -- not unless Dumbledore told
them the secret would they be able to see the house.
Yes. One way is for Hagrid to be told the secret but then this leadsEither the charm was in place or it was not. If it was, Hagrid
wouldn't have been able to find Harry. So obviously, it was not.
Unless, of course, Hagrid had been 'told' the secret, in which case
there is still no use for resorting to exotic magical inventions . . .
(IMHO) to plot holes. There is no need to resort to exotic magic but
resorting to exotic magic elimates plot holes and is something JK has
done before without apparently any SOD problems.
They may talk about there being a HQ, but they don't know where it
is. Godric's Hollow is specifically mentioned by name as the
Potter's hiding place. Not much of a secret if everyone knows
where it is.
Well, I'd like to have your opinion on what I say above regarding the
nature of the Fidelius Charm. The key, as I see it, is in the
description of what happened in OotP when Harry was told the secret of
the Headquarters, and in the description Flitwick gives in PoA-10 'The
As long as the Secret-Keeper refused to speak, You-Know-Who
could search the village where Lily and James were staying
for years and never find them, not even if he had his nose
pressed against their sitting-room window!'
The implication is that he actually /could/ have pressed his nose
against their sitting-room window, and there was definitely nothing to
stop him from searching Godric's Hollow.
If he could press his nose against their sitting-room window, then theI'm with 100%.
Charm in Godric's Hollow did work differently than in Grimmauld Place,
where he would not have been able to find a window (or a house) to
press his nose against.
Um...I think here you are actually responding to me not to gjw. AndSee, this are YOUR assumptions.
And none of them resorts to claiming fantastic, undocumented abilities
of any creaturs or other kinds of invention. All of it relies on
1) Hagrid is near GH coincidentally even though he cannot know
that the Potters are there because noone can even say "the
Potter's are hiding at GH"
Of course he can know. "Go to Godric's Hollow and have a look around,
checking that nothing happens to the Potters."
here I was spelling out gjw's assumptions. Under his assumptions,
Hagrid is in GH but not there to check on the Potters (because he can't
because of the way that gjw thinks the FC works at GH).
Just as Narcissa might have told some other Death Eater to go toActually exceptions played a major role in each book.
Grimmauld Place and watch out for any members of the Order of the
It seems a fundamental aspect of Rowling's magic, that no magic is
infallible, and that would apply also to the Fidelius Charm.
In every sort of magic, there is a weakness, but that relies on the
cleverness of the opposite side, not some Deux ex Machina magical
ability (note how rarely such abilities have played a major role --
with GoF as the spectacular exception).
Book Absolute Exception
---- ----------------------------- -----------------------------
1 AK curse cannot be survived Mother sacrifices herself
2 No apparation in Hogwarts A house-elf
3 Azkaban is escape proof Sirius Black
The map shows all persons Time-travellers
4 AK curse cannot be survived Prior Incantato
5 AK curse cannot be survived Phoenix swallows AK curse
No apparation in the Ministry A phoenix
6 No apparation in Hogwarts Vanishing cabinet
*Later we learn Barty Crouch Jr. also escaped.
It's actually a wonder why DD considered Hogwarts so safe or why
Azkaban is describe as escape proof. In fact, it's hard to believe that
any magical absolute in the HP world does not have a deus-ex-machina
escape clause. Of course, you have to be clever or talented to find it.
Yes but if (A) Hagrid is nearby why is Hagrid the lookout and not in
1.) Someone had to find baby Harry and rescue him[...]
The descriptions furthermore require that Hagrid is on the scene very
shortly after the rebounding curse. This can be achieved either by
Hagrid being already nearby, or by assuming that Dumbledore has placed
some other warning system to warn him, and then he sends off Hagrid by
some magical means (Floo, Portkey, Side-along Apparition, whatever).
the house. Hagrid is certainly a good bodyguard but he is not the most
observant person. And why does Hagrid not even have the slightest guilt
about being in GH but not being able to do anything to stop LV? We know
that Hagrid berates himself for not stopping Sirius when he had baby
Harry in his arms and had no knowledge that Sirius was (falsely) the
betrayer at the time they met.
If (B) DD sends Hagrid by a quick means to GH, then we have to ask why
DD did not go by the same quick means himself? We have to suppose that
off-stage, never mentioned in books 1-6, there was a dire emergency
that DD had to takje care off that was of the same or equal importance
to saving Harry.
You would rather suppose that there are plot reasons for either (A)
Hagrid being nearby or (B) DD not going to GH himself to save Harry.
I would rather suppose that the FC is still in effect and DD cannot go
except by this wonderful, exciting, new but totally plausible *MAGICAL*
means (emphasis not shout).
It's a matter of taste.
Same diff. But here again I was spelling out gjw's assumptions. OK so I2) The backfire cursed breaks the FC or the FC breaks when
certain conditions are met (Harry's parents die and LV
is nearly destroyed).
Not quite right. The Fidelius Charm isn't broken at all -- but the
secret it protected has ceased to exist.
should have said gjw must assume that "the backfire cursed breaks the
FC or the FC breaks when certain conditions are met or the secret
ceases to exist when certain conditions are met".
Since the secret doesn'tNo so simple. See above. The secret you stated above is 1 sentence. And
exist, there is nothing for the Fidelius Charm to protect, and hence it
cannot have any effect. That is a simple application of deduction.
that 1 sentence does not imply all you imply. It is not simple to
deduction to say that after Harry's parents die (but not Harry), the
Potter family ceases to exist. It is not simple deduction to say the
hiding means hiding while the threat of LV exists. And it is not a
simple deduction to say that the hiding ceases to exist when it is
"nearly destroyed". (What is left, ruins, walls, a ceiling? When does
the house cease to be? When the rood is gone? All four walls? What if a
pile of rubble is left? Is that a proper hiding spot? Etc.)
Or unless...I won't say it again.That is clearly demonstrable by the fact that the Potters were now
visible to Hagrid. If Hagrid can see them, the FC is broken.
Unless Hagrid has been told the secret (which I agree is rather
Yes we can imagine any number of ways...but this is hand-waving.3) Hagrid sees something when the curse backfires, informs DD of
what he finds.
If Hagrid (or any one of Dumbledore's supporters) is in Godric's
Or any kind of magical warning system -- he might even have had some
kind of system akin to Mrs Weasley's clock to show him when the Chosen
One was in deadly peril.
The point is that we can imagine dozens of ways for Dumbledore to know,
even before the attack, but too late to react to save the Potters, what
was going on.
Unfortunately it brings in complications. For one, if DD can have a way
of knowing LV is attacking but can't react in time, why have an alarm
system at all?
But the main point is the here again I was was spelling out gjw's
assumption. It was his assumption that Hagrid just happens to be at GH,
coincidentally, not guarding the Potters. Hagrid then sees something at
the hiding place (like the muggles do). Hagrid then goes over and finds
Harry and then messages DD (or messages DD and then finds Harry). These
are in fact, gjw's assumptions in his reconstruction.
You fail to grasp what I am saying and whose assumptions I am talking4) DD then communicates back to Hagrid to take the baby to PD
BEFORE DD goes to GH himself.
Don't shout -- that you fail to grasp the fact doesn't change it.
about here. I'm emphasizing that under gjw's assumptions (#4) not mine
that at this point DD tells Hagrid to take the baby to PD. Thus, DD,
with the help of owls, uses Hagrid as a proxy to perform the most
important action that night (saving Harry from GH) while he does
something else. It would simply have been easier for DD to go to GH
himself for a few minutes. This is the point that you and gjw are
ignoring: if the FC is broken/secret is no more and DD can apparate
to/out of GH quickly the he should. It's that simple. To say that he
doesn't means that he was doing something more important. Yet in this
reconstruction of gjw, DD is doing something more important while
Hagrid is at GH and at the same time DD is in two-way communication
with Hagrid regarding what to do with the baby. And in books 1-6, we
have not been given even the slightest inkling of what DD was doing
that was more important. Do you understand how huge a plot hole this
I have to again agree with you here 100%.That is indeed the way Rowling wrote it. There is no mention of
Dumbledore going to Godric's Hollow. Instead, he instructed
Hagrid to bring the baby to him on Privet Drive. If you don't
like the way the story was told, complain to JKR.
In particular Dumbledore was never mentioned in the connection of
Hagrid meeting Sirius as he would surely have been had he been there
(unless Rowling decides to change that fact retroactively). Dumbledore
may have been in Godric's Hollow later in the day, but still before he
arrived in Little Whinging (though we have no way of knowing that, I,
/personally/, think that it would be the natural way of things).
Hagrid found Harry very shortly after the killing curse rebounded,
ruining the house, and he already had instructions from Dumbledore to
take care of Harry (enough to insist to keep Harry from his godfather).
It is extremely unlikely that Dumbledore would have had time to visit
Godric's Hollow before Sirius got there (except, perhaps, to drop off
Hagrid before hurrying on to do what else had to be done), so the only
solution is indeed that Dumbledore told Hagrid to take Harry and bring
him to the Dursleys the following evening at midnight before he himself
(Dumbledore) had time to investigate the scene. That is not an
assumption, but the only story that fits the facts.
Yes I did change. I'm now just simply saying there was a house in GHCompare with my assumptions. 1) The FC works like 12 Grimmauld
Did you change your description of how it worked? The description you
gave earlier (that the location of Godric's Hollow was the secret) is
/not/ how it worked at the Headquarters.
guarded by the FC. This is simpler plus I don't have to explain
myself...but I will.
In my original post, I was trying to make as little assumptions as
possible so I said that some location at GH was guarded by the FC. By
this I meant (though this may not have been clear) that the location
could have been a room, the house, the street or the whole town for all
we know. We have seen examples of each guraded by some magical means
(not all FC's): Room of Requirement (hidden until you think of the
specific room), 12 Grimmauld (guarded by an FC), Diagon Alley (hidden
from muggles), Hogwarts (hidden from muggles). But this introduces
confusion (admittedly through my errors in communication). So now I
simply say "the house".
LOL. This is not science. It's a game...trying to guess the originalbut (originally) only James, Lilly, Sirius and Pettigrew are in
on the secret (we then know that Pettigrew tells LV).
So far, so good.
Most likely, yes.
2) DD has a spy, a magical exception (Fawkes), in GH That
bypasses the FC.
Another huge leap.
That is fitting the facts to the hypothesis rather than rejecting the
the hypothesis for not fitting the facts. It's what the scientists,
with a certain amount of disdain, sneeringly calls an 'ad Hoc
assumption of the worst kind'.
backstory. And that is what we must do because we cannot approach this
The fact is that any reconstruction cannot have a "simple" deduction
from the facts. All reconstuction must involve guesswork. There is no
this follows simply from that.
For ex, suppose you say that the secret is broken follows simply from
the fact the the Potters are dead and the house is nearly destroyed.
Read above and you will see that that is not simply the case. But OK
let's say it is true the thse secret is no more. Then we know that
Hagrid picks up Harry on DD's instructions. So it follows, simply, that
DD had to have some reason for sending Hagrid and not apparating there
in a few seconds himself. To fill this plot hole, you must then assume
that there is something that DD is doing which is more important than
checking on Harry or that something is preventing him. And now you have
done the equivalent to what I have done. You have invented a way
(something more important) to explain your previous deductions (DD
can't go to GH for some reason) which you derived from the text (Hagrid
picked up Harry not DD).
The question is which one is more likely to you/which do you prefer?
You seem to prefer a backstory in which some heretofore unknown
important thing is keeping DD from checking up on Harry at GH. I prefer
a magical twist that explains away these plot holes. And the latter
seems more in keeping with the way JKR would write the backstory IMHO.
Again, we agree.Not only do we not know that he had a spy at Godric's Hollow, but
we don't know that Fawkes was there, we don't know that Fawkes is
capable of overcoming the Fidelius Charm, and we certainly don't
know that he could tell Dumbledore anything about it.
Putting any kind of spy or warning system in Godric's Hollow to warn
Dumbledore is an assumption. It is an assumption that arise because we
cannot find any other way of explaining how he came to know about the
attack so quickly as he did (enough to have instructed the first man on
the scene, Hagrid, to take care of Harry).
Trying to put a name to the spy or warning system is just to pile aBut it's part of the game of guessing the backstory...it's like trying
needless complications and extra assumptions on top of the previous
assumption -- and this time without the benefit of explaining something
to guess who the killer is in a whodunit.
Furthermore fantacising that this spy would have some fantastic magicalIt has no basis in the books except for character. That is, like you do
ability that is hitherto unrevealed is merely fan-fiction. It has no
basis in the books.
in whodunits, you ask why would someone do something. In this case the
question is why would the spy at GH leave Harry behind so that DD has
to instruct Hagrid to pick up Harry.
We could suppose it is Snape but then Snape has to be there but
powerless to prevent the act or warn DD in time. This seems against the
(good) Snape nature. Then Snape has to tell DD and then hide or leave
before Hagrid gets there.
But a magical creature spy has nice properties. A portrait can see and
deliver messages but is not able to transport the baby. A house-elf has
powerful magic such as being able to apparate at Hogwarts but is a
strange creature with strange motivations and there may be a reason why
it can't transport the baby. Finally Fawkes can apparate in warded
placs and survive an AK curse. And he has an advantage that only a dew
other characters in the book have (Hagrid and Snape being the other
two)...namely DD's absolute trust.
Assuming, however, that Fawkes could have warned Dumbledore quicklyAnd what would you call the assumption that DD is off doing something
enough if he were at the place is fair -- we do see Fawkes warning
Dumbledore, Harry and McGonagall about the approaching Umbridge in
That is a wild assumption at best.
You're too kind . . .
so important that he cannot spare a few minutes to go to GH and check
on Harry?...but I will kind.
If you assume that Hagrid got there right away. Funny how that "simple3) DD has a means, a magical exception (Fawkes or a Thestral)
that bypasses the FC. He shares this means with Hagrid and
that's how Hagrid gets to GH.
That doesn't follow either. Even if Fawkes could somehow bypass
the Fidelius Charm and go to Godric's Hollow himself, even if he
could lead Hagrid to the house, Hagrid would still be unable to
see the Potters there if the charm hadn't been broken.
And neither Fawkes or the thestrals could have got Hagrid there in
assumption" is not supported by anything direclty in the text, that is
the time is not explicitly stated. It's not a simple assumption at all
but an assumption dependent on deducing things from very vague
references (muggles were swarming about) and the supposed fact that the
FC/secret is broken.
It would have had to be Hagrid who took the creature by someAgain if we assume that Hagrid gets there right away...but we'll have
other kind of magical transport (though possibly Fawkes could have
teleported himself to Godric's Hollow the way he teleports into the
Chamber of Secrets, but he couldn't take passengers that way as we see
when they leave the Chamber).
to wait to see who's guess is right.
I would agree with you. But just to put this series of comments inYour assumptions need a convieniently placed Hagrid to make the
One wizard being in Godric's Hollow is not all that convenient.
Hagrid or whatever -- something or someone installed in Godric's Hollow
to warn Dumbledore within seconds of the attack.
context...under gjw's reconstruction, Hagrid is at GH coincidentally
and is able to tell DD what happens and rescue Harry because of this
See above why it can't simply be that there is no longer any secret toPlus they need a magical exception to the normally absolutely
It's not an exception. It is simply how the charm finally ends -
when the secret ceases to be a secret.
[The Fidelius Charm is an 'immensly complex spell']
'involving the magical concealment of a secret inside a
single, living soul. The information is hidden inside the
chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth
impossible to find -- unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper
chooses to divulge it.
[PoA-10, 'The Marauder's Map]
If there is no longer any secret, then it cannot be magically
concealed, and, logically, the whole things collapses.
Yup. Same as you.My assumptions only require that DD has magical exceptions to
bypass the FC.
No, your assumptions require
1) Dumbledore had a spy or warning system in Godric's Hollow
Here we differ on this particular. But you make it like it's a big deal
2a) That is a spy
2b) The spy is Fawkes
3)Just like every magical ability that the phoenix has shown. How did DD
Fawkes to be able to defy the FC.(This is something wholly new -- a new kind of magical ability for the
Phoenix that has never been even hinted at)
introduce Fawkes, "Harry this bird being reborn into flames here is my
basilisk fighting, super-strong flying, apparating even in the
Ministry, AK curse swallowing, mourning song lamenting, phoenix. Oh and
I forgot to mentions his tears can heal."
4) The spy (Fawkes) warned DumbledoreEr...um...naturally otherwise why have a spy. But you want to nitpick
your own deduction OK.
5) Dumbledore got hold of Hagrid and instructs himWell this is not even an assumption...this is in the text.
6) Hagrid had a means of transport to take him instantly, or nearlyNo I do not assume this at all...if you had read what I had clearly
instantly, to Godric's Hollow
written...I said (repeatedly) that DD has a means of transport that is
(relatively) slow compared to apparating. This means is Fawkes or a
Thestral who, because of their super-dupery-Harry-Pottery-magicalness
can bypass the FC (which I assume to be in effect). This means will be
used to fly Harry out of GH to PD. When Sirius arrives, Hagrid chooses
to fly on Sirius bike because it, the bike, is no slower than the means
he meant to use (Fawkes or a Thestral). What could be less clear than
7)How are they not one and the same. 7 is the same as 6. Read it.
Fawkes could then lead Hagrid to GC.(I'm going to let this stand, despite 6 above, as the two cannot
possibly be the same)
8) The Fidelius Charm could persist after the secret was voidCorrection. You assume the secret is void. It is not necessarily void.
It could be voided of course but when you write what the secret is, you
do not specify the (non-obvious) condictions when it could be voided.
You are the one who brings in this extra assumption (the secret can be
voided). Most people say that either the FC was broken (as gjw does) or
that the FC is still in effect but Hagrid knows the secret.
I'm just saying that the FC is still in effect and that neither Hagrd
nor DD knew the secret. And yes this means that the secret is not
voided in your language.
9)Not at all. In fact, you and gjw's are making an assumption on the way
Hagrid could then defy the FC and see the Potters.(another out-of-the-blue invention that is even contradicted by
everything we know about the Fidelius Charm)
magic works in the HP world based in fact on some very unclear text
("you can press your nose"). In fact, Bellatrix asks Snape at Spinner's
end about the location of the OotP's HQ. Snape says that he cannot
speak the name of the place. So the DE's want to find the OotP HQ. What
idiots, specially that Bellatrix, huh? If they ever find the OotP HQ,
the OotP'ers would be invisible to the DE'ers and would win easily.
That's a total of nine assumptions, one of which, 3), is /very/ tenuousLet's recount
and another of which, 9), is contradicted by canon.
1) Dumbledore had a spy - same as yours
2) The spy is Fawkes - different from yours
3) Fawkes to be able to defy the FC - different from yours
4) The spy (Fawkes) warned Dumbledore - nitpic/same as yours
5) Dumbledore got hold of Hagrid and instructs him - same as yours
6) Hagrid had a means of transport to take him instantly, or nearly
instantly, to Godric's Hollow - wrong this is more like yours.
My assumption is that he has a slow means of transport to GH - which
is different from yours.
7) Fawkes could then lead Hagrid to GC - this is the same as 6
8) The Fidelius Charm could persist after the secret was void - wrong
Mine is the the FC is still in effect - different from yours
9) Hagrid could then defy the FC and see the Potters - wrong my
assumption is that the hiding place is the thing that is hidden like
12 Grimmauld - this
is the same as your assumption - you further assume that if tha FC
effect and someone finds the house (bypassing) the FC, they cannot
still see the Potters
So 1, 4 and 5 are the same as yours. 6 is the same as 7. Now 2, 3, 6,
and 8 are different from yours. 9 is the same as yours except that you
add a further condition on how the FC works. So I only make 4
assumptions that you do not make. And you make 1 assumption that I do
not make. This is what it takes to make my scenario work.
The alternative scenario presents:But you forgot to add the following assumptions:
A) Dumbledore had a spy or warning system in Godric's Hollow
B) This warned Dumbledore
C) Dumbledore got hold of Hagrid and instructs him
D) Hagrid had a means of transport to take him instantly, or nearly
instantly, to Godric's Hollow
D1) Dumbledore had a spy
D2) The spy was Hagrid
E) The Fidelius Charm could not persist after the secret was void
That is a total of five assumptions, four of which are mere repetitions
from the longer list (but these are generally so unproblematic that I
guess they're hardly worth being called assumptions -- in particular C
is based on canon).
Why did the spy not pick up Harry?
A1) The spy was either Hagrid positioned outside the hiding spot.
Or A2) The spy was inside the hiding spot but for some reason did not
Why did DD not go to GH with Hagrid to make sure that
C1) DD was off doing something more important or had to do something
important than going to GH and checking that Harry was OK.
Why did it take 24 hours for Harry to go from GH to PD?
F1) Hagrid had to fly for 24 hours on a flying bike, approx 1440
F2) Hagrid did not fly for 24 hours but took Harry to an undisclosed
Now A, B and C are the same as mine. D and E are different. But you
have to add A1 or A2, and C1, and F1 or F2. That's 5 assumptions that I
So from the baseline of assumptions that you and I both make, I make 5
assumption that are not part of the baseline (counting our difference
with 9 above). You make 5 explicit and implicit assumptions that are
not part of the baseline.
The real difference is one of taste/style/preference. I prefer the plot
to have few plot holes. I prefer the backstory to introduce no new
major characters or events that have not been mentioned in books 1-6.
But I don't care how many new magical tricks JKR invents in book 7.
You prefer that the backstory follow already deduced (not explicitly
stated) magical events (the FC/secret is void) and work with the ways
that you think magic works (eg the FC charm works the way you say).
That is you would prefer few if any magical tricks (like new powers for
Fawkes). But you would not mind if the plot was expanded (the something
that DD was doing while Harry was being rescued).
For what it's worth, the idea involving Hagrid having been told aboutAs I said before...you prefer "unnecessary complexity" to the plot to
the Fidelius Charm would add several assumptions:
I) Sirius was told the secret
II) Peter wrote it down on a piece of paper
III) Dumbledore somehow got that paper
IV) Dumbledore showed the paper to Hagrid
And of course it would also rely on 8) from the first list.
This adds unnecessary complexity for such a hypothesis, but at least it
doesn't assume the existence of hitherto unseen magic effects or
contradict canon in any way -- it relies completely on established
new, "unestablished" magical practices.
It may not be a problem for your reconstruction (as you more wiselyI was simply mentioning some of the various methods of magical
communication available in the books... (there is also the
patronus communication, but I suspect that is probably beyond
Hagrid's prowess.) On the other hand, I suspect that the "head in
the fireplace" bit is simply a means of using flue powder,
something Hagrid could probably manage. But an owl is the least
An owl would be too slow, but both two-way mirrors and floo networking
would be available to Hagrid as he would not have to actually do any
magic himself. All in all getting the information from Godric's Hollow
to Dumbledore and from there the instructions to Hagrid is not a
assume that if Hagrid is near GH, then he is in a mission).
But it is a problem for gjw...again to put this comments in context gjw
assumes in his reconstruction that Hagrid is in GH accidentally, ie he
is not checking on the Potter's but merely paying GH a visit. Under
such an assumption it is harder to see why he would have a 2-way device
with DD. After all, Hagrid is out for a stroll not on call with the
The OP has to assume some kind of fast communication as wellI'm not complaining about OP communications. I'm complaining about
(though I'm not sure they realise that), so it's rather foolish to
complain about it.
Hagrid visiting GH by accident.
This is where you start to argue semantics isn't it.No we do not have evidence that Hagrid, Fawkes or AYNYONE was near
GH when the cursed backfired. The text only tells us the James,
Lilly, Harry, Pettigrew and LV were there.
Not even Pettigrew.
The rest is deduction.
Voldemort's wand got from Godric's Hollow to Albania. From there weYup I was right...semantics.
/deduce/ that most likely[*] someone was there with him to pick it up.
That it was Wormtail is speculation.
We also know that information about the deaths of James and Lily got to
Dumbledore in a matter of seconds. From there we deduce the most
likely[*] presence at the spot of some spy or warning system. The rest
[*] Most likely because in both cases Rowling may have something
unexpected up her sleeve -- wands that magically return to their owner
(Thor's hammer, anyone?) or James' ghost appearing before Dumbledore
(both /very/ unlikely, IMO).
Well since we are trying to guess the details of the story then I guessUnless you want to argue that he got there magically (e.g.
apparation), it's apparent that Hagrid was in the general
area when Voldemort attacked.
Well, either-or. I don't think it's particularly important, and I doubt
that it'll ever prove important for the story.
it is important. That is the game...who was where.
The exact events leading up to killing curse rebounding will possiblyObviously she wants us to believe that or at least think it but say "No
be important -- in particular Voldemort's reluctance to kill Lily (much
as I detest the idea, I have to say that it seems to me incresingly
likely that Rowling might go for a 'Snape loved Lily' solution).
way". How that will turn out (Snape loved, Snape did not love, Snape
fries a fish)...can't say at all given what is given IMHO.
But the aftermath, Hagrid rescuing Harry, Dumbledore arranging forI have to disagree. The missing day is a big problem. Where was DD?
Harry's safety etc. all that is explained in sufficient detail in the
books as they stand, and the further details are very unlikely to be
important for the story.
Whre was Snape? If there is one clear fact in this discussion is that
you, gjw, I and all the others have different versions of what
happened. So the things that happened that night are not at al clear.
Sigh...but it's a whodunnit...the story of the crime is written in aNever ignore the simple needs of the writer. This is fiction,
after all, and the practical need to tell a story often accounts
for the otherwise inexplicable parts of a plot.
Very sound advice, yes.
logical sequnce first...then witness points of view are written...then
the aftermath is written...so the readers seem to see a story with
contradictions until the detective reveals all at the end. And JKR has
admitted to writing in this way.
Of course, after 2600 pages, some elements far removed from this
original backstory and witness accounts may be inconsistent.
But the game is to figure out whodunit.
Now ff you want good advice...don't waste so much time on the usenet!
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