Re: Why Harry *isn't* a Horcrux

<snip everything cos it was far too long, I hope you don't mind>

Okay i think I understand all the points which make you believe that
there is no possibility of harry being a horcrux so below is a list of
your reasons (condensed and paraphrased (again i hope you don't mind),
let me know if i missed anything out or have misunderstood anything you
said) with my counter arguments underneath it.

>Mostly, I've believed what I have read in the books. I am
>not so sure about what I or other people have read "in between the lines".

well of course it's not in the books that harry is a horcrux if JKR
means that to be revealed in book7.

>I believe JKR's given us a lot of information already without the need for
>more wild speculation

of course it is speculation, all theories, by nature, are. but this
speculation is based in canon therefore it is not /wild/ specultion, it
is reasonable speculation. for example when Einstein speculated that
the speed of light was constant and that it was time that is relative,
it wasn't wild speculation because he had a bases for it. the theory
hasn't been disproved and it explained many things which previously
scientists couldn't explain. In the same way my speculation is not a
wild speculation because it is based on things JKR has alluded to and
explains things that were otherwise unexplainable, therefore it is not
'wild' by any account. in CoS AD tells harry that Voldemort
unintentionally transfered some of his powers in harry, this theory
provides an explantion of how that could have happened and there
doesn't seem to be anything in canon that contradicts that theory, so
again, how is it /wild/ speculation? i was lead to the theory that
harry could be a horcrux by wondering about how harry could have come
by LV's powers. I didn't just randomly think it. it is not like i am
claiming that hermione is really snape's and hagrid's secret love-child
-that would be wild speculation! :)

>Not sure where you got the idea that LV's soul was ripped after he killed
>Lilly. Nothing like that has been mentioned by JKR. Oh yeah, you've
>supposed it. Do you see what I'm getting at? If your supposition may be
>wrong, then most of what follows it would be wrong as well.

re-read horcruxes chapter in book6. slughorn says killing rips the
soul. LV killed lily. therefore his soul was freshly ripped.

i think you should try and see what i'm getting at; you don't yet
understand the thoery i put forward. i am not questioning you're
intelligence just your willingness to understand. please clear you're
mind of any preconcpetions you have of the thoery, take time to read
the thoery with an open mind and then see if you can find anything in
the books that contradict the thoery.

> And where does it say LV brought an object to make a Horcrux when he was
> trying to kill Harry? It doesn't. Again, your supposition.

the books doesn't explicity say it but it is implied. because AD says V
went around collecting trophecies to encase his soul bits in, so he
would need an object to make a horcrux. so of course he would bring it
with him if he was intending to create a horcrux. supposition? yes, but
based in canon? yes, so not wild supposition.

>What Dumbledore said was
>that LV would've created a Horcrux had he killed Harry. It would've been
>his final one or so DD believed. That's because Harry would've been a
>significant kill. But, he didn't kill Harry. So, he didn't create a
>Horcrux (then). Dubmledore believes he did it later and used his pet snake
>Nagini after killing a muggle caretaker at his father's house. We seem to
>keep coming back to this point.

So we both agree that Voldemort wanted to use the soulbit ripped when
harry was murdered inorder to create his final horcrux, yes? He
believed that seven horcruxes would make him invincible, we known this
from his conversation with Slughorn? knowing about Voldemort thirst for
power, would you say it was reasonable to speculate (as opposed to wild
to speculate :)) that Voldemort would want to create this last horcrux
as soon as possible? so that he might be invincible sooner rather than
later? so doesn't it suggest Voldemort would have started the horcrux
creating spell right after sending AK on harry?

Also do we agree that Voldemort has done AK many times without it ever
rebounding? therefore it is reasonable to speculate that voldemort
never even concidered that his sitting duck baby of a target would
escape death. bearing all this in mind is it not reasonable to
speculate that Voldemort begun his horcrux creating spell without
pausing to see harry go limp? now before you start saying 'yeah but it
isn't in the books', let me point out that JKR won't have put it in the
book so far if she intended it to be a book7 revelation.

slughorn said "Killing rips the soul apart. The wizard intent upon
creating a Horcrux would use the damage to his advantage: He would
encase the torn portion [in an object]". But Voldemort was only
interested in the torn potion of particular murders, how can Voldemort
be sure that the spell would use the right torn potion? maybe because V
knows that the spell always uses the last torn potion? so this is
another reason why V would have wanted to do the horcrux creating spell
right after killing harry; in case they were interupted and V would
have to kill someone else and would lose access to the soulbit created
when harry was killed. also seeing as Voldemort was painfully ripped
from his body at the time the horcrux creating spell was being
misdirected to harry, isn't it reasonable to speculate that he didn't
notice this occuring? therefore he didn't know harry was a horcrux so
why wouldn't he go on to make what he believed was his final horcrux in
Nagini?

> JKR leaves vague clues but she never mentioned horcruxes until book6

of course JKR would not mention something that was central to the plot
of a future book. many new and previously unmentioned things crop up in
each book. JKR had all 7 books plotted out since before the first book
was published so while she never named the means by which Voldemort had
become immortal she knew about it. And she did leave clues for it;

----
"You can speak Parseltongue, Harry," said Dumbledore calmly,
"because Lord Voldemort -- who is the last remaining ancestor
of Salazar Slytherin -- can speak Parseltongue. Unless I'm much
mistaken, he transferred some of his own powers to you the night he
gave you that scar. Not something he intended to do, I'm sure ....

"Voldemort put a bit of himself in me?" Harry said, thunderstruck.

"It certainly seems so."
----

I know many just take this to mean the rebounding AK caused power
transferal but i think the power transferal happened because of the
soulbit transferal. AD guesses that Voldemort didn't intend to cause
this power transfer, which is what the theory I put forward says too.

>Dumbledore knew about Horcruxes at the end of the 2nd book. I believe he
>would've said something to or done something if he believed Harry was a
>Horcrux.

This is one of the reasons i hold back from completely believing in the
theory. but there are a couple of ways that JKR could get around this
issue, if that is what she had planned to do

1)maybe AD didn't realise harry was a horcrux. AD worked out the other
horcruxes by trying to get into Voldemort's head, trying to think 'what
would Voldemort make a horcrux?' but AD can't deduce that harry is a
horcrux in this way because Voldemort never intended for harry to
become a horcrux. Also horcruxes aren't well researched so AD doesn't
know all the things that can (possibily) happen when a horcrux creating
spell goes wrong. so maybe he just thought that the failed spell caused
soulbit transferal and it didn't occur to him that it turned harry into
a horcrux.

2)AD did intend to tell harry but died before he got the chance. We
know that AD nearly died when he came into contact with the curse
Voldemort had put on the Ring-horcrux to protect it. Had he died, he
would have died before telling Harry /anything/ about horcruxes. so
isn't it possible that he died before he told harry quite everything?
Maybe AD has set up another means to let harry know in the event of his
death. so maybe harry's gets an unexpected message from AD's brother or
something in book7.

but whatever reason, ultimately AD didn't tell harry because JKR didn't
want us to know yet. If she planned it as a book7 surprise she isn't
going to reveal it until then.

>I believe that a prophecy
>was made that LV would mark a young boy as his equal but that the boy
>would have a power that he doesn't have. How he did this isn't nearly as
>important as it happened.

how can you be so sure that it isn't important to the plot? what you're
saying is similar to saying, 'it doesn't matter why the AK rebounded,
the important thing is that it did' when actually the notion that love
is the most powerful magic is a theme that runs throughout the series,
and therefore important to the series. my point is, you are not JKR
therefore how can you just declare something in the book to be
unimportant? i think the fact that JKR hasn't yet explained exactly how
this power transferal occured indicates that it will feature in book7.

>However it happened, the prophecy is being fulfilled by both
>because they both choose to persue it. That's what's interesting. They
>could both turn away but they won't.

exactly! my theory supports this notion. if voldemort hadn't heard
about the prophecy he wouldn't have deemed harry's death important
enough to merit a horcrux creation. according to the theory if V hadn't
begun the horcrux creating spell, it never would have gone wrong and
harry wouldn't have gained his powers.

>It doesn't matter HOW the boy acquired those abilities. Call it fate,
>kismet, call it an AV curse gone bad.

how can you be so sure of this? IMO if JKR has alluded to something but
not implicity stated it, be sure it'll turn up in a future book. Fate
is just a word used to describe a turn of events (whose possibility of
happening is certain), it is not a mechcanism by which things happen.
the prophecy only said /what/ will happen (i.e that harry will be
marked LV's equal) it doesn't indicate /how/ it happens. just because
something was prophecised does not mean it will happen (AD said not all
prophecises come true) so there must be a turn of events which caused
the power transferal. so don't you think you're being premature by
dismissing this turn of events as unimportant? it, like the reason the
AK didn't kill harry, could be of vital importance to book7 plot.

>Even Fudge knew this in GOF when he
>talked of hearing about curse marks causing special abilities on those who
>bear them This is the magical world.

I had a quick search and couldn't find Fudge commenting on this, could
you provide me with the book and chapter name. also the exact quote
would be handy.

> By the way, what did he say after
>he tried to kill Harry? He said he was ripped from his body and became less
>than a spirit. Seems like a pretty powerful argument against creating a

it really isn't because according to the theory Voldemort did the spell
just as the AK rebounded upon him. the AK hitting Voldemort caused
Voldemort to lose grip on his wand, which as it fell, was pointed at
harry when the horcrux-creating spell came out of the wand, instead of
the object voldemort wanted to make a horcrux. so the effect the AK had
on VOldemort's wand moments caused the spell to be directed at harry
instead of the object Voldemort intended to create a horcrux, this
means the thoery relies on the fact that Voldemort was painfully ripped
from his body.

>>horcrux to hide his soul in. (I prefer not to use soulbit).

your use of the word 'soul' in this instance is incorrect. Horcruxes
are objects which conceal a piece or bit of a soul, not the soul
itself. the term soulbit just differiates soulbits from the main part
of the soul. if you don't, for whatever reason, like this term, use
soul bit or soul piece. but this differiatation is needed because
soulbits (which are pieces of soul which have been ripped from the main
soul) are clearly different to the main soul (which Voldemort lives in)
becuase soul bits does not make a person, whereas (main) souls do.

>All of this could be
>explained without any suppositions. No what ifs.

yet you keep failing to provide one. where does it say in the books
that it all happened by fate, as you supposed?

Lastly I would just like to again urge you too please clear your mind
of any preconcpetions you have of the theory and take time to read the
thoery with an open mind so that you can understand it properly and
then see if you can find anything in the books that contradict the
thoery....

thanks! :)

--
Jane Grey

.

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