Re: Why Harry *isn't* a Horcrux

I'll try to answer your many questions as best as I can. Please forgive the
length.


"Jane Grey" <jane.grey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:1137253821.117029.76970@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Randy wrote:
> "Jane Grey" <jane.grey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> news:1137180451.007489.53560@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Randy wrote:
> >> "Jane Grey" <jane.grey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> > <snip>
>
>
> > that is the whole point of the thoery; if you want to try and guess the
> > book7 plot you have to think "what if".
>
> Not necessarily. I believe thinking "what if" just clouds the issue.
> These
> books read like detective novels. Clues are mentioned vaguely but they
> are
> present. The idea of "soulbits" and "Harry is a Horcrux" are based on fan
> supposition that I believe isn't supported by anything written in the 6
> novels so far. Anything is possible though. But I still believe the
> argument is weak. Sorry.

this is where you are mistaken, there are many things (in CoS and HBP
especially) which support this thoery of how harry acquired LV's
soulbit and how harry could be a horcrux. read on details below...

I may be mistaken. I never said I was right. I'm just trying to support
the arguments I have on why I don't believe Harry is a Horcrux. But, if I
can assume I may be mistaken, then perhaps you should consider the same. I
don't mean this to be pithy. I believe your theory comes more from your own
speculation than it comes from the clues that have been laid out before us.
I try to base what I believe on the information I've read so far. I believe
I've come to know many of these characters after reading each book 3-4
times. I've tried to look for hidden clues and the intent of the author in
what she was alluding to. Looks, conversations, feelings of annoyment, even
the smell Harry associated with the Burrow. Funny, Ginny was around. Could
he have come in contact with a love potion? I don't know. But there is a
vague allusion to it. Hmmm...
Anyway, this is the stuff I look for when re-reading these novels. She
leaves vague clues. But, when you re-read the novels, you find out that she
was giving the reader a clue about what would happen later. She's very good
at that. But, she never mentioned Horcruxes until the 6th Book. But
Dumbledore knew about them at the end of the 2nd book. I believe he
would've said something to or done something if he believed Harry was a
Horcrux. He spent so much time and energy trying to destroy them. I think
he would've known. I think he would've done something about it.

> > "marked by the Dark Lord with special abilities" has no meaning in
> > itself. I believe the same rebounding AK which made harry's scar also
> > caused Voldemort to accidentally transfer his soulbit into harry.
>
> Sure it does. In COS, Harry and Dumbledore had a conversation about these
> abilities. Dumbledore told him that. (See dialog below from pg 245 of
> COS. )

how then, do you think, harry came to have LV's powers if it wasn't by
soulbit transferal?

First - I don't believe in soulbits or soulbit transferal. Those are your
words and your theory They don't come from JKR or so I believe. Yet, 's
possible you could be right but I don't think so. I believe that a prophecy
was made that LV would mark a young boy as his equal but that the boy would
have a power that he doesn't have. How he did this isn't nearly as
important as it happened. It sealed his fate. See the interviews JKR has
done or read her Web Page. She's talked about that subject quite a bit. I
believe the Leaky Cauldron Web Site has more information on these interviews
as well. However it happened, the prophecy is being fulfilled by both
because they both choose to persue it. That's what's interesting. They
could both turn away but they won't.

It doesn't matter HOW the boy acquired those abilities. Call it fate,
kismet, call it an AV curse gone bad. Even Fudge knew this in GOF when he
talked of hearing about curse marks causing special abilities on those who
bear them This is the magical world. Its make believe. It operates by the
principles that JKR manufactures in her imagination. She's given clues to
that world in her six novels. She's also been somewhat vague about what
happened at Godric's Hollow. I understand why we disagree. Still, I
believe she's given us a lot of information already without the need for
more wild speculation.

<snip>
> I read your reply. I didn't believe it made much sense but I did read it.
> You say LV did this unintentionally. I believe the only thing that was
> unintentional was that the curse rebounded on him making him less than a
> spirit but still alive.

You seem convinced that LV couldn't have unintentional made harry a
horcrux, i am wondering what your reasoning is? why are you convinced
that this can't have happened?

Wow, I can't believe you asked me this. I've given several reasons why I
believe Harry is NOT a Horcrux. See my previous posts. I don't want to
re-type them. Mostly, I've believed what I have read in the books. I am
not so sure about what I or other people have read "in between the lines".
If there's a possibility that he's a horcrux, then there's a possibility he
isn't. I have staked my belief from what I've read that he isn't. It seems
logical to me, from what I've read, that the story is as it has been told.
We may not have all of the details, but we have enough to figure out many
things. Unfortunately, the "harry is a horcrux theory" doesn't fit into the
clues presented so far. I may be wrong. Personally, I don't care if I am
wrong or right. I'm just trying to lay down arguments as to why he isn't a
horcrux.


> > 1. V kills lily
> > 2. V sends AK on harry, the moment it hits harry, V sets about doing
> > the horcrux creating spell.
> > 3. V has magically taken his soulbit out of himself (not realising it
> > is the soulbit ripped as a result of Lily's murder) and is about to
> > bind it to the object he brought with him when the rebounded AK hits
> > him.
> > 4. V loses control of the spell and the soulbit is directed towards
> > harry instead.
> > 5. It enters harry and takes up residence alongside harry's own soul,
> > supplying harry with the traits that the Hat saw in him when it said
> > that he would do well in Slytherin.
>
> Again, supposition without support.

it is not completely without support. we know LV intended to create a
horcrux that night

Jane, no we don't. We know he would create a Horcrux after killing Harry.
When that happened wasn't mentioned. By the way, he didn't kill Harry. If
A+B=C, then C-B=A and so forth. This is just logic.

and we also know that spells don't always happen the
way the spell-caster intended it to. But at the end of the day, it is a
theory and therefore, by defination, it has to go into the realm of
'What if'.

Likewise, you should/must consider those theories contrary to your own
suppositions. What if the story is what it is? Harry is not a Horcrux.
Harry is a young wizard marked with special abilities because of a prophecy.
Its kind of like fate. Its kind of like he is a chosen one. We may not see
these abilities yet but it could make interesting reading how this young,
reasonably inexperienced wizard duels with the greatest Dark Wizard of all
time. No soulbits. No Harry is a Horcrux. Just Harry and friends
searching for, finding, and destroying the remaining Horcruxes. Harry
searching for, finding, and battling with LV. Maybe Harry running across
Snape and Draco Malfoy again. Wow, sounds like a great novel to me. I'm
looking forward to it. And if I'm wrong, if Harry is a Horcrux......so be
it. But, I haven't seen anything in the books so far that leads me to that
kind of a conclusion.

> Wait. You say Voldemort was about to
> cast the spell to create a Horcrux after hitting Harry with the AK curse
> and
> now you say this was unintentional. Which is it? Maybe the result was

LV intended to create a horcrux but he didn't intend for that horcrux
to be harry.

And where do you come by that information? You seem to believe this happens
concurrently. That isn't supported in the story. What Dumbledore said was
that LV would've created a Horcrux had he killed Harry. It would've been
his final one or so DD believed. That's because Harry would've been a
significant kill. But, he didn't kill Harry. So, he didn't create a
Horcrux (then). Dubmledore believes he did it later and used his pet snake
Nagini after killing a muggle caretaker at his father's house. We seem to
keep coming back to this point.

> unintentional but the act certainly wasn't. Isn't it possible that he was
> there to kill and create a horcrux later?

Possible but not likely, IMO, because i think it would have been on V's
mind that what if Lily or James triggered an alarm and OftP members
were going to show up soon?

Maybe. Maybe not. Surely based on supposition though.

Voldemort would have to kill other people
and therefore when he made his horcrux that newly ripped soulbit would
be used instead.

He didn't kill who he intended. Harry was his prize. Harry was the
prophesied one. Not James. Not Lilly. By the way, what did he say after
he tried to kill Harry? He said he was ripped from his body and became less
than a spirit. Seems like a pretty powerful argument against creating a
horcrux to hide his soul in. (I prefer not to use soulbit).

we know that Voldemort wanted to use the soulbit
ripped when harry was murdered

No, we don't know that. You suppose that. I hope you can see the
difference.

and therefore I think he would have
attempted to create the horcrux right away.

> Could he have not hidden it in
> another valuable object as he did with the others?

I belive that is what he intended to do but alas things don't always go
to plan.

> Why is it so hard to believe that LV went to Godric's Hollow with the
> singular purpose of murdering a little boy prophesied to be his downfall?

Because AD says in HBP that Voldemort also intended to create a horcrux
out of the rip caused my harry's murder.

Check out again page 471 - 474 in HBP. I have. Dumbledore is talking about
objects LV would chose carefully as his horcruxes. Harry isn't one of them.
A locket, a ring, Hufflepuff's cup, Nagini, and two others unknown but
believed to belong to Gryffindor and Ravenclaw as well. He wanted objects
from the founders. Nowhere does it mention that he took out a soul bit
(even accidently) and inadvertantly placed that into Harry while attempting
to or trying to kill him. What you're referring to is Dumbledore's comment
that LV was intending to make his final Horcrux with Harry's death. Harry
didn't die. So, he made Nagini his final Horcrux. Why would Dumbledore
mention that a final Horcrux had been made if he had an inkling of knowledge
that Harry may or was a Horcrux? We get most of our information (JKR says
its factual when he speaks of these. See her Web site for interviews she's
conducted on the subject) from Dumbledore. He isn't wrong according to JKR

So Voldemort must have brought
an object with him, which he wanted to make a horcrux.

> Murder is the key word. Not store a Horcrux in him while he's killing
> him.
> That doesn't make sense. I believe this is one falacy of your argument.

Only because you don't understand my argument. Voldemort never intended
to make harry a horcrux. After sending AK on harry, Voldemort started
making the object he brought with him into a horcrux.

And where does it say LV brought an object to make a Horcrux when he was
trying to kill Harry? It doesn't. Again, your supposition. Its
unsupported. Its imaginative but you could be wrong, couldn't you? And
what if it is what it is? LV tried to kill Harry, it didn't work. He
disappears for 13 years, comes back, and tries to kill him again. Jeez, a
lot sure has been written about that by the author. I don't mean to be
sarcastic but I think you're missing the point. All of this could be
explained without any suppositions. No what ifs. It may not be as fun. So
be it. I'm just laying out what I believe from what I've read. I've
already pointed out that you and I can read the same material and get
something different out of it. That's human nature. It happens to
everyone. Neither of us is smarter than the other. We're just different.


But when the AK
rebounded onto him he lost control of the spell and LV's soulbit
accidentally got directed towards harry instead of the object.

Again, your supposition based on little else written in the books.

So
Voldemort didn't want to make harry a horcrux, it happened
accidentally. Voldemort didn't realise this had happened until book5.

In CoS when Ron intended to make Malfoy 'Eat Slugs', but instead, he
caused himself to. Ron's spell went wrong because he had a faulty
wand, I think that Voldemort's spell went wrong that night because of
the rebounding AK hitting him. it must be a little hard to do spells
properly when your soul is painfully being ripped from your body.

Try impossible to do such a spell without a body and w/o being able to hold
a wand. You forget that he was ripped from his body. He became less than a
spirit. I believe Peter Pettigrew was there and retrieved his wand. Else,
why would LV still have it?

irit. Unintentionally, certain
> attributes that he possesses are passed on to Harry. This was prophesied
> and was fulfilled in this act. This assumption may be wrong but its at
> least supported by the story line and has been mentioned several times in
> the novels.

With every book we find out more information about what happened that
night. with that in mind, do you really think we know everything there
is to know about that night?

Absolutely not. I believe we'll find out more in book 7. Remember, Harry
intends to return to Godric's Hollow. He mentioned that at the end of HBP.
I do believe we have been given many clues as to the story itself without
having to rely on a lot of unsupported speculation by fans. JKR laid out
the plot a long time ago. She's already written the ending. We'll find
out.


I don't and this is why: AK is a killing
curse, why would it cause power to transfer?

I don't know. Why wouldn't it if it rebounded on the caster and there was a
prophecy saying that the Dark Lord would mark a boy as his equal? We don't
exactly know how magic works in these books. We just know that spells are
cast by those who have the ability. Once they master it, they can do magic.
That's enough for me right now.

You seem to think that
mysterious things happen when AK rebounds and somehow power transferal
occured.

Not really. I just don't believe Harry is a Horcrux. I believe the boy was
marked. Dumbledore said he was marked when LV tried to kill him. That's why
Harry has the scar. There's a differnce.


This IMO is a sloppy explanation and i think JRK's imagination
is greater than that.

Finally, we agree on something. She does have a great imagination and she
writes it very well. Just because she's imaginative doesn't mean that she
always intended to make Harry a Horcrux though. Please don't confuse her
imagination with yours. I've read six novels of her imagination. I just
don't think your particular theory "jives" with what she has set out so far.
Its not personal. We just differ.

i think we will find out in book7 that the
rebounding AK caused LV's ripped soul piece (which ripped off during
Lily's murder) to go into harry

Not sure where you got the idea that LV's soul was ripped after he killed
Lilly. Nothing like that has been mentioned by JKR. Oh yeah, you've
supposed it. Do you see what I'm getting at? If your supposition may be
wrong, then most of what follows it would be wrong as well.

(whether this made harry a horcrux, i'm
not sure) and this is how Harry acquired LV's traits and powers, and i
think this is the bases for the connection between them.


Perhaps. And I'm saying its possible that Harry was destined to be marked
with those abilities by surviving the AK curse because of his mother's
protection. LV didn't account for some old magic. Bad for him. He created
his nemesis. He has to pay for the evil and destruction he's caused by his
own bad choices. Harry is that person. I'm sure they will do battle. I'm
hoping Harry finds all of the Horcruxes, destroys them, and destroys LV.
Its going to cost him. He may lose a friend or two. I believe Snape's fate
is sealed. He'll probably be killed by LV but may give Harry what he needs
to get an advantage over the Dark Lord. He does owe Harry's father for
saving his life. Peter Pettigrew owes Harry a life as well. I'm not making
these up. I believe all of these themes have been alluded to in each of the
books. I believe many of these will be answered in Book 7. I just don't
believe that "Harry is a Horcrux" has anything to do with this.

I'm tired now and I need to get some sleep. I enjoy reading your rebuttals.
Its interesting reading. Like I said before. I may be wrong. If so, I'll
take a line from Gilda Radner on SNL. "Never Mind". If I'm right, oh well.
There's a first time for everything. If we're both wrong, Oh well again. I
still enjoy the books. And I still believe Harry isn't a Horcrux. That was
my purpose in posting here in the first place.

Randy
































to make his final Horcrux with your death. As we
know, he failed."

this thoery is putting forward the notion that in failing to create
this horcrux as he intended, Voldemort caused harry to acquire his
soulbit. and it might have also caused harry to be a horcrux as well.

> kill him. Voldemort lost his body and his ability to do magic. Ergo, no
> Horcrux was created. Its a simple argument supported by what we know so
> far. Agreeably, that isn't very much. But its supportable.

Actually there is lots of indication that Voldmort still had his
magical powers before resurecting in GoF. He killed Frank Bryce,
Occulumenced Berkin Jokins and AD speculates that he created a horcrux,
all in GoF before the resurection.

In fact i think after his resurection in GoF Voldemort is unable to
create anymore horcruxes because Voldemort used Harry's blood to
resurect and therefore Lily's protection is within him too. Lily's
protection stops the bearer from being harmed by Voldemort. This means
that Voldemort cannot harm himself. Therefore when Voldemort murders,
Lily's protection stops his soul from being ripped. Without a ripped
bit of soul, Voldemort cannot make any more horcruxes. incidentally
this explains Dumbledore's 'gleam of something like truimph' in GoF.

> Although Voldemort isn't infallible, he isn't stupid either. It makes no
> sense to kill a person and then store your soul in him in order to
> preserve
> it and then try to keep killing that person. Certainly he must be aware

the theory does not say that LV ever intended to put a bit of himself
in harry. CoS supports this, because AD tells Harr that, "Unless I'm
much
mistaken, [Voldemoet] transferred some of his own powers to you the
night he
gave you that scar. Not something he intended to do, I'm sure ...."

the question is though, how did Voldemort unintentionally transfer some
of his own powers into Harry?

> that Harry has certain of his abilities. He now knows he's a
> parseltongue.
> (He'd know that from Draco through his father) That's why I believe your
> theory is weak. But, who knows? It could be right. I doubt it but its
> a
> possibility.

I don't understand what you mean here: how does LV's knowing about
harry's parseltongue make this theory weak?

> Unfortunately, it isn't well supported in what has been written so far.
> But, if you want to believe it, fine by me. You've stated your reasons
> and
> they're just as valid as those I've stated. We'll all find out in a year
> or
> so. Then you can rub my nose in it, agree with me, or we can both be
> wrong.
> I'm just laying out arguments within this thread of why I believe Harry
> *isn't* a Horcrux. I'm not the only one who believes that. Please, don't
> shoot the messenger.

I'm not shooting anyone, just laying out why i think the possibility
exists that harry is a horcrux. I'm just questioning your's and
everyone else's reasons for not believing in the possibility that harry
is a horcrux. I'm not asking anyone to believe he is because i'm not
sure of that myself (how could i be? i'm not writing the books). but i
do see that the possibility exists and i'm just trying to get other
people to see it too. So far all your (and others') reasons for
debunking the idea either contradict the canon or come about because
you did not fully understand the thoery.

> > We know Voldemort intended to make his 6th horcrux that night, but the
> > rebounding AK caused harry to be that horcrux thus forfilling the 'mark
> > him as his equal' part of the prophecy.
>
> Whoa there. Where do you get this from? That's a big assumption. The

it's not an assumption, it's a theory. the theory is based in canon.
the thoery doesn't contradict canon and therefore it is a valid thoery.
i'm not saying it's a true thoery, that can't be determined until book7
but if the canon so far does not contrdict it then it is a valid
theory.

> latest novel doesn't mention that LV was going to create a Horcrux that
> night. What we know is that Voldemort intended to kill Harry. In HBP,
> Dumbledore tells Harry that LV would probably have created a Horcrux after
> killing him. Since he didn't kill Harry, Dumbledore said he created a

Voldemort has used AK many times to kill people without it ever going
wrong, he had no reason to think it might go wrong when he tried to
kill harry as a baby. Also he was at the height of his power and he was
going to kill a mere baby, i'm sure he had no doubt in his mind that he
would be sucessful in killing harry once he got Peter to disclose their
whereabouts. So i think after he sent AK at a sitting target baby
harry, he wouldn't have concidered to wait until harry drops dead
before starting the horcrux-creating spell because he would have seen
harry's death as a forgone conclusion.

another possibility is that LV hadn't got around to starting the
horcrux-creating spell but when the AK rebounded upon LV, one of the
ripped of soul pieces got flung into harry, making harry his equal
according to the prophecy. If this is the case then harry definately
isn't a horcrux.

> Horcrux after killing the muggle caretaker of his father Riddle's home.
> Dumbledore believes this Horcrux to be Nagini. What we do know is that a
> horcrux can be created after a wizard kills someone, tears his soul in
> two,
> and hides a portion in an object. We don't know if this can happen while
> a
> wizard is doing the killing. We don't know if LV had any other intention
> that night outside of killing James and Harry. We know he didn't intend
> to
> kill Lilly until she refused to step aside.

But AD supposes that LV did intend to create a horcrux that in and
according to JKR, AD's guesses 'are never far wrong'

> Somehow or other, Voldemort has figured out how to create a Horcrux at
> least
> six times. Nowhere is it mentioned by Dumbledore or anyone else that this
> is done at the same time one is killing the victim.

I am not saying that the horcrux gets created automatically after the
killing, I am supposing that Voldemort has reasons to start the horcrux
spell right away.

> I believe that argument
> is based on reader speculation unsupported by anything else that is known.

It is not unsuported speculation, it is a logical conclusion from
things AD has said:-
AD says that Voldemort "..seems to have reserved the process of making
Horcruxes for particularly significant deaths." This suggests that LV
would want to make his horcrux right after the murder because if he
went on to kill others before making the horcrux the soulbit created
during that murder would be used. Voldemort would want to ensure that
he used the soulbit created when he killed harry by doing the horcrux
creating spell right away.

<snip>
> >> arguments have been mentioned before. Yet, anything is possible.
> >> This
> >> is
> >
> > like what?
>
> Like Harry is a Horcrux. Harry is an animagus. Lilly was a Death Eater.
> Sirius is still alive. Dumbledore isn't dead and will come back in Book 7
> etc. etc. Each time some new form of magic is introduced in the novels,
> speculation runs wild.

Sirius still being alive and Lily was a DE are completely baseless but
harry is a horcrux isn't a baseless theory that you seem to think it
is. the theory was created because there are clues for it, it explains
many things (like how harry became LV's equal) and it gives scope for
plot twists in book7.

> > I believe what my interpretation of JKR's writing style tells me I
> > ought to believe, not what i want to. e.g. i want to believe Snape is a
> > baddie and has always been but HBP, IMO, suggests otherwise.
> >
>
> Well, that's another topic for another thread. In that, I think you're
> closer to being correct than believing Harry is a Horcrux. But, believe
> what you want. I'm not saying I'm always right. I could very well be

just to set you straight: i don't believe harry is a horcrux, because i
am hoping JKR has something more surprising in store for us, but i do
believe the possilbilty exists. However I am convinced that the nature
of harry's connection to LV is that harry has V's soulbit in him (but
this does not necessarily make harry a horcrux).

> wrong. Then again, who cares? Its only a novel. The 7th book will be
> published and we'll all find out.

we sure well

<snip about Snape still being on AD's side>
> possibly arranged to do beforehand. This plot may be further developed in
> the 7th Book. I'm sure Harry will run into Snape again. That will be an
> interesting portion of the book to read.

agreed!

--
Jane Grey


.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Harry probably is a Horcrux, yknow!
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