Re: When did Snape convert? (was Re: Has anyone compiled a handy list of the arguments for and against Snape = evil?)


<karnak17@xxxxxx> wrote in message
news:1124520847.141304.287200@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> gjw wrote:
>> On 19 Aug 2005 00:47:33 -0700, karnak17@xxxxxx wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >gjw wrote:
>> >----- -----
>> >Narcissa to Snape in "Spinner's End"
>> >
>> >"I beg you . . . . You are the Dark Lord's favorite, his most
>> >trusted advisor . . . . Will you speak to him, persuade
>> >him -- ?"
>> >
>> >"The Dark Lord will not be persuaded, and I am not stupid
>> >enough to attempt it," said Snape flatly.
>> >----- -----
>> >
>> >"The Dark Lord's favorite" won't intervene on behalf of the
>> >loyal son of a Death Eater because 1) he's too afraid, and
>> >2) it wouldn't do any good anyway. I don't see YOUNG Snape
>> >daring to ask Voldemort's for favors on behalf of an ENEMY,
>>
>> Not an enemy. He didn't ask LV to spare James...
>
> So Lily Potter wasn't an enemy of the Dark Lord? Why not? Because
> girls don't count? Because she REALLY was sympathetic to the Death
> Eaters, but was just pretending otherwise so as to be a good little
> wife to James? Or because she was too busy with the baby to fight
> Death Eaters at the moment? (You do see the flaw in that LAST
> argument, don't you?)
>
>> Certainly, Snape wasn't going to risk his life for Narcissa.
>
> Um. . . Snape DID risk his life for Narcissa.
>
>> He had nothing to gain by it and everything to lose. Just a
>> bad deal all around. Risking it all for someone he loved,
>> on the other hand, is something quite different.
>
> Snape says flat out that it would do NO GOOD for him to ask the Dark
> Lord for favors, even if he WAS in love/stupid enough to attempt it.
> You either believe him or you don't.
>
> <snip>
>> However, the Snape-telling-Voldemort portion is not essential
>> to the entire tale.
>
> I agree.
>
> <snip>
>> >Nor do I see Voldemort being dumb enough to trust Snape on a
>> >double-agent mission if Snape had stupidly revealed his divided
>> >loyalties in this way.
>>
>> That is the one fly in the ointment that makes me uncertain about
>> the Snape-tells-Voldemort part of the Snape-likes-Lily story.
>
> Yes. It is a question of who you think Snape would find more reliable,
> who would be better able or willing to save the Potters, DD or
> Voldemort?
>
> If the answer is Dumbledore, which it clearly is, then why would Snape
> RISK his access to Dumbledore by giving Voldemort any reason to doubt
> his loyalty. DD doesn't ACTUALLY trust anybody. If he had even the
> smallest reason to doubt Snape, he wouldn't let Snape within 20 miles
> of Dumbledore, and there would go Snape's only REAL shot at saving the
> Potters. I think asking Voldemort to spare the life of an enemy --
> sorry, an enemy's WIFE -- would put that tiny smidgen of doubt in V's
> mind.
>
> <snip>
>> >Voldemort's father abandoned him, his mother died giving birth to
>> >him, and she refused to save herself from death in order to
>> >remain and raise him. I think he might be permitted to have a
>> >few parental issues of his own, don't you? And that when he
>> >faced a family which was the opposite of his own -- a loyal
>> >father and husband, a strong mother willing to fight for her
>> >child's welfare -- some of those issues might have come up, and
>> >affected his behavior.
>>
>> Nope. Interesting theory, but IMO it doesn't fit in with Rowling's
>> portrait of Voldemort. His main characteristic is that he simply
>> doesn't understand love or goodness (and after so many
>> soul-splittings, he is now probably completely incapable of it). He
>> wouldn't admire such a sacrifice, he would see it as a weakness.
>
> What does "admiration of sacrifice" have to do with anything? We are
> talking about why he offerred Lily the chance to step aside.
>
> Obviously Lord Voldemort is a sociopath. The REASON he is a sociopath
> is because of his parental abandonment, his institutionalized
> upbringing, and his lack of human bonds from the youngest age.
>
> Whatever V has done to his soul, his psychology is still the psychology
> of Tom M. Riddle. And Tom M. Riddle has been acting out the issues
> surrounding his abandonment in various ways ever since we first laid
> eyes on him. His orphaned abandoned state, how he got that way, how to
> avenge himself on the people who let him get that way, and how to
> replace the human bonds with power, possessions, and Hogwarts, have
> been Tom's obsessions since childhood.
>
> So it is more than possible that Lily and Harry triggered some of V's
> issues. In what way, I don't know. Subconciously acting out his guilt
> for killing his father and "causing" his mother's death might be one
> option. Either way, I don't think that Rowling has devoted a large
> portion of her sixth book to the whats and whys of what V thinks and
> feels, just so that that she can make his motivation for one of the
> most pivotal decisions of his life amount to "my minion asked me to".
>
>
>> (In
>> fact, that is what he told his followers in the GoF graveyard
>> scene: "My curse was deflected by the woman's _foolish_
>> sacrifice..." And to Harry himself: "...my late father. A Muggle
>> and a fool. . . very like your dear mother."
>>
>>
>> >It's not ALL about Snape, imho.
>>
>> Of course not. But Snape is the key insofar as his secret (about
>> Lily) is the one thing that Rowling has kept from us. That one bit
>> of knowledge unlocks most of the book's remaining riddles.
>
> I hope not.
>
> But be that as it may, Lord Voldemort is still a character in his own
> right with his own psychological issues. And all this about how Snape
> was such an important spy that V would do this and that and the other
> thing for him doesn't ring true at all.
>
>> >> Fifth, it explains why Snape went ballistic (in "The Flight of
>> >> the Prince") when Harry mentioned him being responsible for
>> >> the death of his parents.
>> >
>> >We already know for a fact that Snape is partially responsible
>> >for the Potter's deaths. In any scenario.
>>
>> But why should he care, if he didn't care about Lily?
>
> So if you accidentally killed a woman and her baby, you wouldn't care,
> unless you were in love with her?
>
>>Certainly not
>> for James... Lupin is the first to spot the obvious problem with
>> that scenario.
>
> Lupin is a first rate idiot. He knows from his own personal experience
> that James, who hated Snape like poison, nonetheless risked his own
> life to save Snape's. This is called being a human being with a
> conscience, which even bad people have been known to do.
>
>>Neither Lupin nor Harry can believe that Snape
>> would feel remorse about the Potters, because when they think
>> Potters, they think James, not Lily...
>
> Harry is also an idiot. He knows he felt remorse over what he did to
> Draco, even though he hated him. And he was a close up witness to
> Draco's own crisis on the tower. Draco wasn't fond of DD, and wasn't
> in love with him, but he still had huge problem's with his conscience
> when it came to actually killing him.
>
> Snape MAY have been in love with Lily, or not. He may have been
> willing to murder James, or not. But I find these "he hated James"
> arguments totally ridiculous and beside the point. Would YOU be okay
> with killing somebody just because you happened to hate them???
> Whether you would or not, Rowling's characters have so far shown a
> tendency to feel very, VERY differently.

Rowlings has painted a picture of Snapes hatred of the Mauraders bordering
on psychotic. "Snapes worst memory, Snapes Grudge" "Sirius Black tried to
kill
me when I was 15 blah blah".. His near insanity in the Shreaking Shack when
he
confronted Sirius..etc..etc...Don't forget throwing Sirius' and James'
deaths in Harry's
face during his detention in HBP...



.

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